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reformed hater
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doctypes - 3/28/2006 10:16:51
I didn't want to hijack someone else's thread so here i am....
I still don't get doctypes. I've read the articles provided by Womble, and still don't get them. Then I was informed that since I was new to coding to use a "loose" doctype, but that just messes up my layout. 
this is my temporary page just so you can look at what I'm talking about....
What type of doctype is this and how do you know?!?!?!?!?!
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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When asked what the White House was like by a British student George W. Bush responded “It is White"
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Tailslide
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RE: doctypes - 3/28/2006 10:40:57
I think the Geocities code inserted into your page may cause problems. You may get a better idea checking locally using Firefox etc.
Spit explained it perfectly on the other thread.
There are quite a few different types of HTML and browsers interpret them differently. Basically what a DOCTYPE does is tell the browser what type of coding you're using (loose, strict, frameset etc etc). This helps the browser to display the page exactly how you meant it to be displayed. If you don't include a DOCTYPE then the browser will take a guess. It might get it right. It might not. It's a gamble. If you're still coding like it's 1999 then you'll probably be ok as browsers tend to guess to the "lowest common denominator" of code. If you have any intention of trying to use modern, standard compliant markup or CSS then you really need to help the browser out and tell it what you want it to do.
As suggested, if you're starting out and don't want Firefox knocking on your door with a few friends and a baseball bat if you leave off a closing tag then you're probably better off using the most "lenient" DOCTYPE - HTML 4.01 Loose:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
This goes at the very top of your page before everything else. On your Geocities page - geocities inserts it's code first thing on the page - if this ends up being before the DOCTYPE then it renders it useless (at least in IE can't remember about the rest).
It's much easier to start off with a DOCTYPE in place and then code your page rather than vice versa - but it's not impossible to fix.
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Tailslide
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RE: doctypes - 3/28/2006 16:20:30
It depends on your coding - having a valid page is no guarantee that it will look how you want it to, but it's a good place to start and will make problem solving a lot easier.
Stylesheets don't need DOCTYPES - only the HTML page needs one.
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"My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it"
Little Blue Plane Web Design | Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project
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reformed hater
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RE: doctypes - 3/28/2006 17:18:13
yeah well i'm new to this coding thing and so my page is all screwy... so back to the recoding.
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reformed hater
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 9:19:00
The CSS validator doesn't say that it's valid but it gives me a list of "warnings" along w/ this message: quote:
To work as intended, your CSS style sheet needs a correct document parse tree. This means you should use valid HTML.
Is it valid? Should I change the warnings?
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Tailslide
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 9:36:44
It should say at the top of the page either:
quote:
Congratulations!
Valid CSS! This document validates as CSS!
or
quote:
To work as intended, your CSS style sheet needs a correct document parse tree. This means you should use valid HTML.
Errors
followed by a list of errors.
Warnings are just that - something to correct if possible but don't kill yourself over them.
Edit: I've just checked your CSS in the test page you published and it validates fine.
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Tailslide
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 10:43:17
You know when you were a kid and your mother/father whoever used to say to you:
"Well if (insert name here) jumped off a cliff would you follow them?"
Well the same thing applies.
The reason there's so many invalid sites around (apart from laziness on the part of the developers) is that they'll say the same thing - well (insert name here)'s site isn't valid so why should I bother? Thing is - if we start bothering then we'll improve the web. Then others will start bothering too. Think of it like picking up litter.
Is the god of validity going to strike you dead for having an invalid site? No probably not. Is it difficult to get right when you start down this road? Oh yes. Does it get easier? Much easier.
In the end I'd say if you're just doing a single site for fun then don't drive yourself insane over it. BUT if you're doing this for a living or doing a business site then I believe it's your responsibility to do it properly. Others will no doubt disagree with me.
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dpf
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 10:48:30
quote:
Others will no doubt disagree with me. does today end in "y"?
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reformed hater
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 11:00:31
I understand what you are saying Queen Tail, but this is my thought: Know your audience. No one but me will understand (and I barely get it) the valid vs non valid sites. the only thing in the non valid world that troubles me is the cross browser function.
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dpf
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 11:15:05
Rh ; it doesnt have to be either or. you are new to all this - you readily admit to that - we all were, right. why not move forward on 2 tracks. track 1 - do the site you need to do for your employer - use the best coding you can but making it work and look nice is priority one. track 2 ?? you sem committed to learning so track 2 is spending time learning proper coding..maybe making some test sites or a personal site. with guidance from experts like tail and spit and caz and womble et.al, you will be ther in no time (avoiding people like golfer and yours truly is essential to your progress)
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Tailslide
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 11:18:44
I doubt any of my clients have a clue about valid invalid sites (and believe it or not I don't bore them with the details... honestly I don't) - neither do 99% of people who look at the sites. That's not the point... the point is that I'd know and it would really bother me.
In the end you'll do what you feel happy with. I can't tell you that it's alright to have invalid mark-up because I don't believe it is (personally) - but others don't care at all...
You now have a clearer idea of the issues - so you can make a more reasoned decision. Don't give up on it because it's a bit hard though - nothing worthwhile is easy (and other such cliches!).
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Minix
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 12:38:20
I only do a select few sites - about 8 right now. I don't look for new business, but rather design for the projects and clients I select. They are all very basic static sites for informational purposes only. I use FP and very little else. A little CSS here and there, but basic tables, cells and images, with the standard browser friendly texts.
I never use a doctype.
In the last three years, I've had very, very few instances of people not being able to view the sites or having problems accessing the sites for what they are intended to do - get information to the surfers. In any of the browsers.
I tried the doctype thing once at the beginning of a design. It created nothing but problems.
So basically I cover my eyes with both hands and say "You can't see me"!
< Message edited by Minix -- 3/29/2006 13:00:58 >
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spitfire
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 12:41:50
quote:
ORIGINAL: Minix
I've had very, very few instances of people being able to view the sites
Err.. would you like to take the chance to edit that?
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spitfire
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 12:46:51
Quite. Have we reached a consensus RH?
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Minix
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RE: doctypes - 3/29/2006 13:01:30
quote:
ORIGINAL: spitfire
quote:
ORIGINAL: Minix
I've had very, very few instances of people being able to view the sites
Err.. would you like to take the chance to edit that?
Yes. Thank you.
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Printable Version 
that's 2 count 'em TWO valid sheets!!!!!!!! 
