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spitfire
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 4:16:19
quote:
One difficulty is that many authoring tools do not generate compliant HTML and make it difficult to edit the coding. Cabinet Office Spokesman
Well don't use them then :sheesh:
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womble
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 4:31:16
Interesting one this, because my employer's website - local govt. (nothing to do with me) does have a number of both coding and accessibility errors.
I broached this subject a while back when I was invited to tea and biccies with the head of IT (he'd heard about my web exploits and wanted to pick my brains) and the problem with their site at least seems to be the CMS they use.
They no longer have an in-house web team, and the development of the site was out-sourced to some web development co. far, far away. Updates to the site are done by individual departments using this somewhat less than compliant (or accessible) CMS, and those doing the updating are not required to know anything about coding, or accessibility (infact as long as they can find the web site and didn't manage to find a valid excuse to their manager as to why it wasn't part of their job description to do it, they've 'got the job', so to speak).
As I was leaving the aforementioned meeting with chief IT bod, it was mentioned that I may (if I could find time, obviously within my current role, no extra recompense involved etc.) like to take a look at the site with a view to accessibility and report back any problems, and get involved with the updating becuase it would be nice to have someone involved who knew something about coding....
I shalln't make any mention of the fact the site's claiming to be 'AA' compliant, yet features such delights as scrolling text etc....*sigh*....
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~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
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Tailslide
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 4:51:05
I think you've hit the nail on the head Womble. Many of these problems seem to stem from big CMSs that produce ugly ugly code but cost a fortune to implement initially.
Thing is, with Accessibility now such an issue, they'll have no choice soon but to implement an accessible alternative which will probably also equal nice, valid CSS layouts etc.
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Little Blue Plane Web Design | Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project
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womble
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 5:10:41
quote:
Thing is, with Accessibility now such an issue, they'll have no choice soon but to implement an accessible alternative which will probably also equal nice, valid CSS layouts etc.
True. One of the things head of IT showed me was one of the govt. forms they have to complete and return on a regular basis that includes all the accessibility targets. Of course they're in big trouble if they don't meet the targets, and the problem is now that they've shot themselves in the foot.
With no in-house expertise in general, their only choice is to either find an accessible CMS that does produce nice valid and accessible code (not an easy thing - I was recently looking into just such a thing, and though many claim to produce valid code, in reality a lot of them still have flaws, and then there's the accessibility side of things to look at...), or out-source it. All that of course has cost implications, and a lot of it could have been avoided if they hadn't ditched their in-house teams in the first place becuase they thought they could save some money by getting rid of them. 
/gets down off soap-box 
quote:
Many of these problems seem to stem from big CMSs that produce ugly ugly code but cost a fortune to implement initially.
Yup. I suppose it's a question of scale. What's a small fortune for a small organisation would probably be a lot less of a shock to a large organisation. When I looked into CMS recently though, I came to the conclusion than the cheapest option for me (and the client) was to stick in some php includes and teach 'em some basic (x)html.
Edit: I did a while back find a review of supposed valid and accessible CMS packages....unfortunately however though I thought I'd bookmarked it, I can't find it now. I'll let you know if I do.
< Message edited by womble -- 3/30/2006 5:18:06 >
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Tailslide
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 8:38:06
Problem is Donkey that you really need a CMS that works well - most accessibility types like us lot aren't back-end programmers (or at least not big application stuff) so we're not capable of building the things. The back-end programmers who are capable of building the things generally are not interested in accessibility, validity, CSS etc etc.
There are a couple of possible existing candidates like: http://www.defacto-cms.com/ But for the larger implementations you're mostly talking about getting further development work done by CMS companies to get their product to do what you want before you implement it which is very expensive.
Another example - to my knowledge there are currently only 2 100% accessible shopping carts on the market - Karova and Trading Eye. I believe there is a massive market for more of this type of software. Can you imagine? Even if you define the DDA narrowly (only people selling online) ALL online shops in the UK should be accessible...
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"My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it"
Little Blue Plane Web Design | Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project
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spitfire
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 12:32:25
Keeping to the Local and National Government aspects.
Report in the Guardian
quote:
The Society of IT Management's eighth Better Connected survey of local authority websites finds many councils are unable to offer electronic answers to common questions posed by citizens and businesses, ranging from "Where do I complain about a noisy pub?" to "Does the council provide childcare for its staff?"
The good news from the survey, published last month, is that local authority websites continue to improve. Of the UK's 468 council websites, 60 fall into the top category, "transactional", meaning citizens and businesses can engage with their council electronically - for example, to report an abandoned car. However, the rate of improvement has slowed.
From SOCITM
quote:
The results published in Better connected 2006 suggest that the range of functions of council websites, and the number of transactions now available through them, has increased markedly over the last year.
60 councils have achieved the top ranking 'transactional' status, up from 38 in 2005.....
One can pick bits and pieces out of that to enforce a personal view, but things are getting better. They may not be fast enough in our opinion, but then again what are we doing about it? I keep an eye on the Visionary Design Awards and other awards sites. OK the award winners may not be stunning within themselves, but I have been delighted to find that "behind" a lot of the sites that have improved greatly in terms of accessibility and usability, is someone who is what could be called an accessibility evangelist. <bias alert> I know 'cos I proposed some of them for the task</bias alert>
They are not, necesssarily, great coders, applications developers, CMSers, designers or "Jacks/Jills" of all the disciplines but people who are a part of the team, consultants on accessibility/usability aspects either from the start of a new site or to help retro-fit the features.
I know (and know of) a number of people doing this now. Most are part-time members of the team, but involved in all the decision making and explaining/demonstrating how websites can be difficult to use and what to do about it. They also continue to run their own websites/businesses.
So, imo, Donkey does have a point - did I say that? :
quote:
Surely this is a big business opportunity for all you accessibility experts.
It is an enormous opportunity, but not perhaps in exactly the way The Supreme Being later qualified that comment.
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spitfire
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/30/2006 20:05:38
quote:
ORIGINAL: Donkey
You could offer something like a monthly "health check" where you could go in and "accesibilise" the stuff that they have added.
Oh dear... I spoke too soon. Do that sort of "health check" and you will soon need one of your own or go completely bonkers. Accesibilse(sic)ing after the event, without a lot of input into "the event" in the first place, is tantamount to completely re-doing a huge tables site to CSS-P, online, while the site is live and active. Not worth it, unless you are totally desparate for a crust of bread.
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spitfire
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RE: 60% UK gov sites... - 3/31/2006 10:42:15
A good idea, Donkey but some have been there for quite a time. To name a few:
Ability Net Large organisation with bases in several locations in the UK. They were also looking for consultants, applications programmers and coders a short time ago.
The Shaw Trust Rising stars specialising in assisting large corporate and government teams make their websites accessible.
Webcredible Have been doing large website accessibility consultancy, building and maintenance for some years now.
The Royal National Institute for the Blind - no longer touting their service, they have a huge backlog.
Internationally acknowledged accessibility-types who are approached by head-hunters for recommendations of organisations and people to approach to do this work.
They are big, well-run (well most of them ) organisations with teams of people experienced or acknowledged experts in website disciplines/techniques/standards/coding etc. They also have practiced consultants, mentors, tutors and teachers in their teams.
On the positive side:
That is not to say an individual with accessibility skills could not act as part of a team, in-house or out-sourced. But, if an individual does exist, with all the skills needed to update or maintain a site that could have been developed with all the many different techniques/applications software/legacy systems out there and the vital people skills, s/he could command a huge salary, supreme being-like status and even lunch at Number 10 .
However, many of those skills are apparent in various measure throughout OF. The question is, "Could they become a co-hesive, dynamic (whatever) multi-skilled team then go out and sell their services in competition with the established players?" There's a big chance to "get in on the action", if it can be pulled off - are there any volunteers to get it off the ground?
Resistant private enterprise sites can do their own thing, make their own profits, pay their own bills, take their own business decisions and handle the consequences thereof. They are not squandering my rates and taxes and I can choose whether or not to do business with them. 
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