RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More

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RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More

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yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 13:36:03 you're mixing up standards with content. McDonalds may not serve high class food, but they do have high standards of cleanliness etc. And why should a web browser be served anything other than HTML?? Use a style sheet (CSS or XSL) to transform the content (XML) into the right sort of html for the consumer. I don't see why the user should get xml unless they specifically request it. (in reply to Tailslide)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:15:17 quote: ORIGINAL: yb2 And why should a web browser be served anything other than HTML?? Because I might want to - or could if IE accepted it. It would make the pages even faster (obviously by following standards already they're lightning fast!). It's a case of lowest common denominator - like MacDonalds. We should be aiming for more! _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)

spitfire

Posts: 424
Joined: 8/6/2005
Status: offline

RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:25:49

yb2
I rather hoped I would enjoy your post until you said this:

quote:

There's more to the W3C than the eye, methinks... (communists? :)

and this:

quote:

If a screen-reader announced itself as a screen reader on connection then it could be served with proper content.

Microsoft is a member of W3C and an active member of the Web Standards Project. Now you've got me doing stoopid underlines to enforce a point.

Browsers may announce themselves but a screen-reader is not a browser. It takes its cue from how a browser (which has to be IE at the moment) renders a page. It has to sit on top of the browser, it does not actually interrogate the code (or so the UK distributors tell me). Therefore, rubbish rendering=rubbish content if you have no option but to have the page read aloud to you. And I'm sorry to say nested layout tables can produce the bestest, rubbishiest, rubbish you've ever had to listen to.

Even if a screen-reader announced itself on connection, how many coders would throw their hands up in horror and say, "Isn't it enough we have to code for several browsers? Now you tell me we also have to code for loadsa of screen-readers? ".

And why should anyone do anything about the html protocol if, as you say "This one-size fits all approach is from the wrong direction."

Do you mean you can't turn a light off by unscrewing it (unscrewing what? the bulb or the light switch?) with your bare hands. Either way, I am disappointed in you, thought you were made of sterner stuff

(in reply to yb2)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:28:24 quote: Why hasn't anyone done anything about the HTML protocol so that this can happen? The problem there is HTML by it's design is supposed to be stateless. The client makes a request for a page and the server throws it out to the browser. At that point, the sever could care less what the browser does with it - it just waits for the next request. That was OK when the web was young but people want faster, more "live" data and now up steps XML, Ajax, Web 2.0, whatever - which is now way outside that "stateless" mode of HTML. We want the Internet to be now less like the Internet and more like a LAN. So what we have to do is use tools like XML and XMLstyles to feed the browser HTML. The server is no longer serving HTML but XML to the XML parser and then the browser is fed HTML. So in a nutshell, we cannot feed "statefull" HTML to the browser natively unless all the Standards go out the window and we start over. How 'bout a browser with nothing other than ActiveX? Anyone? _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to Tailslide)

yb2

Posts: 653
Joined: 1/30/2006
Status: offline

RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:33:53

quote:

Because I might want to

I suppose so, but the website's not really for you it's for those who visit so why not give them what they want? If you hold a party you don't cook one type of food that everyone can eat, you'd prepare a selection - give veggie stuff to vegetarians, baby food to babies, and steak to thoughtless people

Having said that, using the McDonalds analogy, some of my sites have been more like dodgy burger vans!

quote:

It would make the pages even faster

I don't see how xhmtl/xml would speed things up? Xml is more verbose and implies the use of unicode which is also more bytes, and the engine has to interpret everything whether it's marked-up correctly or not - so where is the speed issue?

(in reply to Tailslide)


spitfire Posts: 424 Joined: 8/6/2005 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:41:46 quote: ORIGINAL: rdouglass So what we have to do is use tools like XML and XMLstyles to feed the browser HTML. The server is no longer serving HTML but XML to the XML parser and then the browser is fed HTML. And which one of them gets fed-up with all that malarkey first? ActiveX - lovely. Does it come with rubbery cheese, undercooked bacon, soggy side-salad, frizzled fries, a fizzy - suspiciously brown coloured beverage - and melted ice cream with little one-time crispy bits of something in it? (in reply to rdouglass)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 14:46:41 quote: rubbery cheese Yes, lots of cheese. And some SPAM thrown in as well. _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to spitfire)

yb2

Posts: 653
Joined: 1/30/2006
Status: offline

RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:00:16

quote:

And some SPAM thrown in as well.

Now that was cheesy!

quote:

Microsoft is a member of W3C

I know. But that does not mean that they are the same thing. "Member of" being the key phrase.

quote:

Now you tell me we also have to code for loadsa of screen-readers? ".

I thought you wanted people with screen readers to have an easier time. 1 content, several styles - big deal! I suppose we should all moan that we aren't telepathic because it means we have to do some work!

quote:

The problem there is HTML by it's design is supposed to be stateless.

Sorry I meant HTTP (my content was not valid!

)

Announcing the type of client you are does not change HTTP to a stateful model. Statefulness means keeping state inbetween transactions. State is seperate, just add something to the client's first request, the server doesn't have to remember anything. You can add the information further up the ladder if you like, extensions like .asp or .php are based on the same idea - requesting a certain type of content - but this would be more helpful.

(in reply to rdouglass)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:38:05 It's simple - We all operate to the same standard - using standard markup. Then screen-reader manufacturers can build their machines with confidence. We can build our sites with confidence. Users get faster, better looking websites that have more functionality (XML). I want to be able to offer my clients more but I can't because I have to build to what will work on IE - which is a shame. Or We can all do different things and you've got anarchy like back in the mid 90s. Or We can all do it Microsoft's way and here halts progress on the interenet until MS decides there's profit in it. The W3C is trying (and thankfully, very slowly starting to suceed) in bringing some order to the chaos. IE7 isn't great but it's slightly better than IE6 and will allow me to offer my clients slightly more than I do now. What we need is basic rules that everyone adheres to and then creativity can flourish from it. We also need more competition from OSs - please please please let Apple release a PC version of OSX - then maybe we'll have an interesting fight. _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)


yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:41:46 How does offering a different version of the same content using a stylesheet tailored to the demands of the client produce anarchy? (in reply to Tailslide)


dpf Posts: 7126 Joined: 11/12/2003 From: India-napolis Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:41:59 quote: then maybe we'll have an interesting fight. like this one? _____________________________ Dan (in reply to Tailslide)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:57:31 quote: ORIGINAL: yb2 How does offering a different version of the same content using a stylesheet tailored to the demands of the client produce anarchy? Why would I need multiple stylesheets? Screenreaders aren't interested in the stylesheets they're interested in the markup (was that point directed at screenreaders?). I don't want to offer a different version of my content for people with good browsers - that's not right. Everyone gets the same - pretty much. All dumbed down to IE's level. _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)


spitfire Posts: 424 Joined: 8/6/2005 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:57:54 Did somebody say a fight - good o - lead me to it? Begs I come out of the sun. Ah but, no but... this is not a fight "as we know it". This is a genuinely hearfelt discussion between like-minded individuals who just have different views on some things based on their personal experiences but who are actually heading in the same direction. Oh and yb2. (in reply to dpf)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 15:58:12 quote: We all operate to the same standard - using standard markup. Then screen-reader manufacturers can build their machines with confidence. Oh really? Even those standards are open to interpretation. Just look into "position: absolute;". Even that is interpreted differently by different browsers. So absolute isn't absolute at all. _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to dpf)

yb2

Posts: 653
Joined: 1/30/2006
Status: offline

RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:04:29

quote:

Why would I need multiple stylesheets?

To transform your XML (the seperated content) into something tailored to the client (via an XSL or CSS stylesheet).

quote:

I don't want to offer a different version of my content for people with good browsers

I thought you were interested in accessibilty? Obviously something is more accessible if it is tailored directly to the client.

(in reply to rdouglass)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:07:14 quote: ORIGINAL: rdouglassJust look into "position: absolute;". Even that is interpreted differently by different browsers. Far as I knew all Standard compliant browsers position absolutely to the containing block (oops) - but then I don't use AP much. There are slight differences - nothing major, nothing that's going to cause you to slap your head off the desk a few dozen times! _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to rdouglass)


spitfire Posts: 424 Joined: 8/6/2005 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:21:19 quote: I thought you were interested in accessibilty? Obviously something is more accessible if it is tailored directly to the client. I know this was directed at Tail but my clients are my site visitors. They have a wide variety of visual, mobility or cognitive problems that make it difficult for them to use a computer in the same way as other people. I can tailor my site directly to meet all their needs and the ones who think they are "normal" with one stylesheet (or whatever acronym you want to use) plus one stylesheet to deal with various versions of IE - mind you I only go back to V5. So following your logic or not grokking what you say most of the time, I also, clearly, have not been interested in accessibility for the past 10 years huh? (in reply to Tailslide)


yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:31:43 The main point behind xhtml is the seperation of content from presentation. So if you keep your content in xml format, making it readily accessible to a variety of other technologies, then you can serve up that content in any fashion you wish through the use of stylesheets (CSS and XSL can be used as stylesheets with XML). If there is a problem accessing a building for wheelchairs you could provide a ramp that everyone uses, or give some people stairs, a lift, a ramp, an escalator... ...or you can just provide a ramp that everyone uses. If you seperate the content from the presentation then it allows you to choose how many different formats you provide. You could still use one stylesheet that produced a one size fits all xhtml markup + content. More choice, more accessible, cleaner and easier to maintain (change the relevant stylesheet and it only affects that type of client). (in reply to spitfire)


spitfire Posts: 424 Joined: 8/6/2005 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:39:40 The words: eggs - suck - grandparent - teaching - your - to come to mind. Rearrange howsoever you will in whichever one (or more) of your acronyms that take your fancy. (in reply to yb2)


yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:46:54 No, what you were suggesting was cleaner markup but the presentation is not seperate from the content, since you only ever present it in one way to all clients, regardless of whether you use css or not. That's not true seperation, that's a pseudo seperation. Suck on that egg, granny. (in reply to spitfire)


spitfire Posts: 424 Joined: 8/6/2005 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 16:51:25 I really would love to dally particularly as this discussion is so erudite and sophisticated, but I have something much more interesting and productive to do. Now where are my toenail scissors? (in reply to yb2)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/4/2006 17:35:33 quote: ORIGINAL: yb2 No, what you were suggesting was cleaner markup but the presentation is not seperate from the content, since you only ever present it in one way to all clients, regardless of whether you use css or not. That's not true seperation, that's a pseudo seperation. That's just daft. Course presentation should be separate from markup. Presentation, Content, behaviour - separate - then it's easier to interpret using whatever method you fancy. If you use an external stylesheet which is the intelligent way to do it then presentation is separate to markup - obviously. The content can be got at via a screen reader or any other method. And as far as your point on accessibility goes - the content is for everyone - accessible for everyone - that's kind of the point. You shouldn't have to write 15 stylesheets because different versions of IE are incapable of reading decent CSS. This is a daft argument - you seem to have mixed up about five or six different issues. Lets summarise: 1. IE isn't as modern as it's competitors 2. IE 7 is a slight improvement - not a great deal 3. Content should be separate from behaviour and presentation to make it more flexible (it should make reasonable sense seen on it's own without styling or scripting). 4. W3C recommendations aren't perfect but they're better than nothing 5. It takes more work but it's perfectly possible to get good coding to work in IE if you put a little effort in. 6. Sites should be valid, accessible and work pretty much the same cross-browser to ensure you give your client the best work you can provide. 7. It's perfectly possible to argue the toss for hours and hours completely pointlessly when neither side is going to give ground - all you end up with is RSI! I've had a long hard day doing cross-browser coding so if you don't mind - I'm off to bed now. Feel free to keep on and on and on and on till morning and I'll take over again _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)


yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/22/2006 21:57:31 I was having some trouble changing a table to pure css today, and on my travels for help found this article in which the writer managed to make the point about (untrue) seperation of content from presentation in a much better way than I was able to manage - but it's the same point. I thought it was an helpful clarification to this thread (or my post!), and glad that I'm not the only one thinking this way (I found a few more links while searching for "css replace table", there seems to be a small minority of disenting voices out there). I'm NOT posting it to cause annoyance or push anyone towards patronising me about my knowledge of web technologies, I have a computer for that. Peace be upon us all! (in reply to Tailslide)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 5:06:31 I actually don't understand his argument - in my view if used properly, the presentation and content are separated. Using an external stylesheet the layout of different pages on a site can be completely different even if the structure of the markup is the same. _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)


d a v e Posts: 4177 Joined: 7/24/2002 From: England (but live in Finland now) Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 5:51:22 quote: Using an external stylesheet the layout of different pages on a site can be completely different even if the structure of the markup is the same. e.g . http://www.csszengarden.com/ _____________________________ David Prescott Gekko web design (in reply to Tailslide)

yb2

Posts: 653
Joined: 1/30/2006
Status: offline

RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 7:38:05

quote:

quote:

Using an external stylesheet the layout of different pages on a site can be completely different even if the structure of the markup is the same.
e.g . http://www.csszengarden.com/

you mean that site where they have an uncomplicated layout and use loads of different stylesheets depending on what the viewer wants to see?

quote:

Why would I need multiple stylesheets?

Zen gardens were built specifically so that wherever you stand you cannot see the whole of the garden. It is a physical representation of non-attachment to ideas, an antidote to absolutism.

(in reply to d a v e)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 9:32:03 I still don't get the argument (I'm not being deliberately obtuse I really don't understand what the guy's getting at). Complicated or simple, used properly CSS layouts separate presentation from content and allow for flexibility in how a page is presented - it would seem self evident. _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)


d a v e Posts: 4177 Joined: 7/24/2002 From: England (but live in Finland now) Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 10:03:07 the guy in the article doesn't convince me at all _____________________________ David Prescott Gekko web design (in reply to Tailslide)


yb2 Posts: 653 Joined: 1/30/2006 Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 10:03:29 I think the point is, that what you say is true to an extent, but it isn't truly seperate and never can be due to the nature of the languages used. A good contrast is XML and XSLT. CSS is an extension of the HTML language and needs to know about the mark up. It's the HTML that decides what is on the page and where, CSS can only affect this, but not control it. XSLT can transform/control presentation, and as the author points out, many desktop publishing packages work in a "transforming" way, with true control over presentation. The idea that the user can run their own style sheet helps illuminate the point also (and is slightly spurious in practice), because for most CSS to work (for the viewer) you have to know about the HTML in advance. Not that it is HTML, but the actual form the HTML will take. _____________________________ it is natural for people not to see one's own faults, and to exaggerate other people's faults and failings. Currently listening to: L'Enfer Des Formes by Stereolab (in reply to Tailslide)


Tailslide Posts: 6290 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More - 4/23/2006 10:29:47 Ok I think I get part of your answer (more enlightening that his article!). With XML where you can make up your own tags, would not the attached stylesheet have to have knowledge of that particular page's tags - is that not similar to CSS stylesheets understanding what a <p> tag is for example? I'm not sure if I understand whether the type of knowledge is different entirely. Would CSS accompanying a properly served (application/xml) XHTML document be more separate? From my point of view, building websites day to day and taking into account the odd annoyance with browser differences, I still find CSS layouts easier to deal with than table layouts (shock horror, yes I used to use tables although not for clients' sites). I don't (with a couple of minor exceptions that I won't bore you with) include presentational markup in with the content - and I love the fact that I can switch the sidebar from the left of a page to the right of the page if I fancy, in about 30 seconds, site-wide. If as this article says, CSS isn't actually separate from the content in a technical definition, it certainly is in a functional, day to day way. _____________________________ "My strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it" Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project (in reply to yb2)

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