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LogicsHere -> MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/1/2006 6:56:15)

I'm an amateur web designer who has been using FP since its 98 version and now am on 2003. Like everyone else who cares about validating code, I too, make the necessary tweaks. I was reading the post on IE 7 and was kind of surprised that you were unaware of the "new" FrontPage.

The original link I received in another newsletter doesn't work, but if you go to the Microsoft website and do a search, for Microsoft Expression, you'll get a brief rundown on this new line which includes a Graphics Designer, and Interactive Designer and two versions of a web development program, one going to be called Sharepoint 2007 and the other Web Designer.



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/1/2006 7:57:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LogicsHere
I was reading the post on IE 7 and was kind of surprised that you were unaware of the "new" FrontPage.


Totally aware of it - the details of what's know have been posted here previously. It's of no interest to me as I don't use FP I hand code my sites. Anyway - nothing much to do with IE7.



caz -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/1/2006 8:57:33)

And for those that do use FP the discussion mentioned can be seen HERE

More available from MS Expressions Web Designer

quote:

Does Expression Web Designer work on all browsers?

Yes. Expression Web Designer supports XHTML and CSS standards and will enable Web designers to easily build browser-agnostic sites. Expression Web Designer also incorporates rich accessibility support to help build the most accessible, standards-conformant Web sites possible.



womble -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/1/2006 12:37:25)

<cynical>
/falls over again in amazement at above quote

/hmmmm.....
</cynical>



caz -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/1/2006 13:51:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: womble

<cynical>
/falls over again in amazement at above quote

/hmmmm.....
</cynical>


Oh ye of little faith... [sm=whistling.gif]



BobbyDouglas -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/2/2006 21:26:35)

Thomas made some good comments here regarding the new FP.



mar0364 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/3/2006 9:23:24)


quote:

ORIGINAL: womble

<cynical>
/falls over again in amazement at above quote

/hmmmm.....
</cynical>

I agree.



rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/3/2006 14:40:02)

quote:

..as I don't use FP


OT but how did you end up here? [:o] [:D]



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/3/2006 15:18:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rdouglass

quote:

..as I don't use FP


OT but how did you end up here? [:o] [:D]


I got lost. [:D]

One of my clients wanted to update their site using FP and was having a problem with FP refusing to open or save the edited file (can't remember which) so I posted the question here.

Then I recognised a "nagging opportunity" (DOCTYPES, CSS, Semantics, Validity, Accessibility etc) and decided to hang around and nag you all incessantly! [:D]



yb2 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 6:16:00)

There's a post here going on in parallel, and I posted up some compliant html produce by the latest Visual Studio. If the "new FP" has any of the same features (and why would it not share a lot of the Designer code/features?) then it will also be standards compliant.

quote:

<cynical>
/falls over again in amazement at above quote

/hmmmm.....
</cynical>

The one thing MS are very good at is making their products better. SQL 2005 is better than 2000, Server2003 is better than XP was better than 2000 was better than NT4. VS2005 is better than 2003... Office 2003 is better than XP.... the list goes on.

Personally, I don't know why there is so much MS bashing going on at the moment because all of their products since 2003 have been very good indeed, and the 2005 bunch are top notch.

IE6? Is that why?? I think IE7 will sort out a lot of the problems, and I'm also sure it won't come out until they've made it as secure as possible. Bill Gates sent all his programmers on security courses a while back - they definitely needed to! - and since then everything has been more secure. Server 2003 stands up to Apache on Linux.

Give them some credit for making the right changes.



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 6:30:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yb2
Give them some credit for making the right changes.


I do (personally). BUT it's a bit like patting a 2 year old dog on the head for not peeing in the house when all it's siblings have been house trained since 6 months.

They work on geological time scales - they only fix what they absolutely have to (financially that may make sense but I don't have to like it!).



yb2 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 6:40:01)

quote:

it's a bit like patting a 2 year old dog on the head for not peeing in the house when all it's siblings have been house trained since 6 months.


Well, looks like the MS dog is now making cups of tea and vacuuming the house.[:)]



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 7:26:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yb2

quote:

it's a bit like patting a 2 year old dog on the head for not peeing in the house when all it's siblings have been house trained since 6 months.


Well, looks like the MS dog is now making cups of tea and vacuuming the house.[:)]


Not for me it ain't!! I don't use VS or any other such. I'm pretty much only affected by the MS browsers which is where the whole dog statement comes from. IE7 - more like IE6.1.



yb2 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 7:36:53)

IE isn't their core business, so why judge them on it? I don't see Mozilla releasing any OS's or server apps, or database engines or (revolutionary) development environments... if MS stuck to 1 browser, a crap email client (yes, I don't like Thunderbird) and a chat program then they'd probably be well thought of too?



rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 8:12:10)

quote:

IE isn't their core business, so why judge them on it? I don't see Mozilla releasing any OS's or server apps, or database engines or (revolutionary) development environments... if MS stuck to 1 browser, a crap email client (yes, I don't like Thunderbird) and a chat program then they'd probably be well thought of too?


It's nice to see someone else recognizing some good stuff coming from MS. I agree that many are so hung up on IE and its issues that they can't see the forest 'cause of that tree.

Personally, I am far more productive using MS software than anything else I've tried. And that *is* why I use a computer - to get work done.



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 8:12:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yb2

IE isn't their core business, so why judge them on it?


Purely selfish reasons - because that's what I have to deal with day to day. 95% of cross-browser issues are IE related so I'm not going to be a big fan am I.

Anyway to be honest I'm not going to say that MS is evil - because that would be silly.

When MS products (and other manufacturers) produce accessible, valid, semantic code (bearing in mind rubbish in rubbish out) then I'll be absolutely delighted. Until then I'll grumble away.





yb2 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 8:14:28)

MS is evil [:D]



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 8:54:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yb2

MS is evil [:D]


I'm trying to be sensible here.. [:D]



rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 9:43:42)

quote:

Purely selfish reasons - because that's what I have to deal with day to day. 95% of cross-browser issues are IE related so I'm not going to be a big fan am I.


There is something about this that just rubs me the wrong way.

Well here goes:

OK. So 95% of the people in the world are wrong. So I'll keep complaining untill they all go my way. Until they all listen to our small percentage group, we will continue to fight the establishment because we are right!

OK. My customer barely knows what a browser is so I don't want to support him. He doesn't know how to use a compliant browser. He has problems on the web site I wrote. That's his tough luck.

OK. I don't care what my customer is running. I do know however that if I want to keep him as a customer, I need everything on my site to work with whatever browser he is using so that he will continue to be a customer.

OK. I have this great new widget that does everything but butter the toast. However, it only works with DC power and not AC. Hey, all you power companies! WHy the h*ll don't you [provide me with my DC power! It's better than AC! Can't you see that already? How do you expect me to sell my stuff if you won't provide me with the power I need!

Where do you want to go today?

</$.02>

EDIT: And sometimes I think those "standards" comittees make things non-MS compatible on purpose. Just for the sole reason that MS won't be compatible. Not always, but sometimes.



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 9:59:25)

Most people can't drive properly either - doesn't make me want to drive like an idiot though...

Macdonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world - doesn't make it any good - I wouldn't want to eat there every day, week or month even.

I'm not going to stop moaning about something that's wrong just because 85% of people in the world use it. That'd be ridiculous.

I support my customers - I make my websites work in IE even though it's harder to do that and still obey the recommendations that I follow.

If I didn't give a **** about my customers and IE then my life would be a LOT easier and I wouldn't need to moan now would I? OR if I didn't give a **** about decent coding then I could produce table-ridden, proprietory rubbish that only works in IE6 and maybe IE7 and take half the time doing it. Problem for me is I care about both. I call it professionalism. But that's my view.




rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:16:11)

Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle you - I was using extreme examples.

However, I hope my point was valid. My point (and apparently yours as well) was that the world does not do the "right" things but usually the "popular" things.

Anyone remember VHS vs. BetaMAX video tape? Beta was a far superior format, size, quality, etc. However can you even buy a Beta tape today?

Technical reasons are rarely ever consistent with business reasons. IMO if you want a sucessful business in the development world, you'd better be able to speak "MS".

I get a ton of business doing VBScript stuff. Is VBScript the best? No ____ way!!! (fill in whatever adjective you choose.)

(I'm spending far more energy on this than I had intended and now probably people think I get kickbacks from MS - I wish! [;)])

I am also very confident I can learn virtually any development language coming down the road. However, my choices will rest primarily on the business logic and not on whether it makes compatible code or not. If 85% of the world works well with ____ language, then that's the one I'll be sure to support. I won't ignore all the others, but I will be certain I take care of that large percentage.

And besides, not 1 browser out there is fully 100% compliant with *any* standard.



caz -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:18:43)

quote:

EDIT: And sometimes I think those "standards" comittees make things non-MS compatible on purpose. Just for the sole reason that MS won't be compatible. Not always, but sometimes.


Now that is a subversive thought Roger, possibly even a new conspiracy theory. [sm=rotfl.gif]



rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:21:57)

quote:

Now that is a subversive thought Roger,


Not so subversive as you might think. You ought to see me when I get going. [;)]



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:40:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rdouglass
I won't ignore all the others


and that's different from what I want how?

I just don't see why people can't design for everyone...



rdouglass -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:47:57)

quote:

and that's different from what I want how?


There is no difference.



spitfire -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 10:48:42)

Me for devil's advocate hate figure, then.[sm=devil.gif]
Microsoft is lots of things. It's big, it's powerful, it's dominant, it's slow to react to trends sometimes like a huge tanker trying to turn around. But without it we would still be trying to share "stuff" produced in a multitude of applications programs by thousands of small corporates that may or may not ride out the next economic downturn. We old timers have been there. With Microsoft there seems to be a better chance of continuity, if nothing else.

Now Microsoft does have one black sheep (sorry Spooky) in the family. IE up to version 6 (maybe up to 7) to my mind lets its siblings down big time. But who can really deny what a great ploy it was to ship it with PCs? So its there/here, we don't have to like it but we do have to live with it, probably for some time into the future. It's a rogue and a thug but, get to know it and it could be quite lovable and good to its Mum.[:D]

I'm all into accessibility too and IE is still the only platform for assistive software. There is a rumour, JAWS, the best selling screen-reader software is planned to work with Firefox 1.5 in JAWS version 7. There is also a rumour the developers are having a bit of a tussle getting it to work in IE7 which could take priority. JAWS software (and its upgrades) is significantly expensive considering its client base - about the cost of a whole mid-range computer system. So I am not planning on JAWS users flocking away from IE for sometime.

I don't like IE much, it falls over from time to time, but it always seems to open faster than some other browsers for me. It's the tool I have to use when assessing website accessibility and my default browser. How sad is that? [:(]
But can anyone please tell me how to "do" a website in FP that works in all the major modern browsers, or should I start a thread on the beginners' forum? [X(]



dpf -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 11:19:53)

this may not be popular but what the hay.....
standards create uniformity which goes a long way towards making the internet workable - Im all for them.... but, I sometimes wonder if FF in being 100% standards compliant and failing to render sites that fall short is really do a good public service. look from the perspective of a user - not a web developer... that user tries FF but many sites dont render as well as they do in IE. which browser is better serving the needs of that user?



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 12:16:13)

The theory is (I think) that we're all going to be moving towards a stricter interpretation of mark-up - i.e. xml which will fail if not well-formed pretty much like JS, PHP etc etc. So the current browsers get stricter in the way they interpret the mark-up to encourage us to be better coders.

It could be argued that the more secure, nicer to use browser is serving the needs of the user better. I have to say that I'm having less and less problems with big mainstream sites than I used to - I can't think of the last time off-hand that I had to switch over to IE to use a site properly. It will no doubt keep happening for a while though.




yb2 -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 13:05:06)

Since IE is the dominant browser why didn't W3C make that the standard? I certainly agree that there are some parts of the MS standards (like the DOM for instance) that could be improved upon or are bettered by a competitor, but if their standards (or closer to them) had been used then it would be less of a problem (70% less)... if you are using their lack of adherence to W3C standards as an argument.

There's more to the W3C than the eye, methinks... (communists? :)

Also, I think MS has gone in the right direction, which is focusing on the TRUE seperation of presentation and data. They are embracing SOA, code-behind's, XML etc.

If a screen-reader announced itself as a screen reader on connection then it could be served with proper content. Why hasn't anyone done anything about the HTML protocol so that this can happen? That would make more of a difference. This one-size fits all approach is from the wrong direction. I'm not completely against it, but it's a bit like trying to turn a light off by unscrewing it with bare hands.



Tailslide -> RE: MS New "FrontPage" and More (4/4/2006 13:30:16)

But IE doesn't recognise xml in web documents - if you try to even serve a web page as application/xml it will choke!

It seems pointless arguing one side versus the other. I like the W3C specs - they aid accessibility, they make for better web pages. I don't like IE's slack way of interpreting code.

But then I doubt I'm going to persuade you and you're not going to persuade me - so going back and forth seems silly! [:D]

Your argument about standards following the market leader falls down under the same argument raised earlier - MacDonalds is the world's largest restaurant chain - by that theory all other restaurants should start serving similar rubbish!




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