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Tailslide
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/27/2006 2:52:12
The general advice from the standards Gurus is that you should be designing for Strict - whether it's HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 it doesn't matter. They reckon that it's better, for instance to design to HTML 4.01 strict than XHTML 1.0 transitional.
This is from Tommy Olsson:
quote:
In my opinion, using a Strict DTD, either HTML 4.01 Strict or XHTML 1.0 Strict, is far more important for the quality of the future web than whether or not there is an X in front of the name. The Strict DTD promotes a separation of structure and presentation, which makes a site so much easier to maintain.
Transitional DOCTYPES are for designing sites that are using lots of legacy code - it basically allows some mixture of content and presentation that is not allowed in strict DOCTYPES. Apparently, browsers behave themselves better in Strict mode and are using their most standards compliant behaviour. With Transitional DTDs they go into "almost standards" mode. I don't have any example that I could give you to prove that apart from various articles that state it.
My understanding of the differences of IE and Gecko/Opera/safari browsers on this matter is slightly shaky. My understanding is that as long as you have a complete DOCTYPE, IE will work in Standards mode. The other browsers will only be in full standards mode with a strict DOCTYPE.
Far as your particular page goes - you've got a lot of inline CSS there which may be conflicting with the embedded or external CSS and might produce unexpected behaviour with FF in strict mode - that's just a guess though without going through the whole thing.
My personal opinion is that we should be using a strict DOCTYPE at all times. If you've got a bit of code that you just cannot get to validate as Stict then you must weigh up whether you'd prefer to do without it or drop that particular page to transitional. I tend to do the former but then I know I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to these things.
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rdouglass
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/27/2006 9:04:02
quote:
you've got a lot of inline CSS
Thanks. That explaination helps a lot.
So what is a lot? Is there a magic number of inline CSS? I tend to think not since there rarely ever is. I tend to generalize about half of my div's and customize each individual div using inline CSS (normally positioning or font tweaking).
Most of my inline stuff there has to do with the rounded corners but I can 'class' all of those.
And I thought that inline was allowed and encouraged hence the word "Cascading" in CSS.
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Tailslide
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/27/2006 9:14:27
The ideal amount of inline CSS I'd say is none. The reason for that is just that it removes all the advantages of having an external stylesheet - i.e. changing things in one place rather than throughout the site - if that makes any sense. It also complicates things when you have to work out the cascade precedence of something - much easier to just have it all external.
I have found one occasion when having a rule in either externally or embedded just didn't work and it had to be inline - I didn't have time to chase it down so I left it inline. (it was to force an element to have "layout" for IE so I knew it wasn't something that I'd be changing).
It's just a case of trying to make life easier!
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rdouglass
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/28/2006 21:22:26
Thanks.
OK. Been working on it some more and now it validates XHTML 1.0 Strict. (It really wasn't that difficult to do BTW.)
So my next Q is "Is it accesible?" (or should I move this to the appropriate forum?)
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dpf
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 0:11:47
quote:
When I linearised the page please explain what you mean by that
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rubyaim
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 0:23:49
FireFox dev toolbar >Miscellaneous > Linearize Page.
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 0:25:42
what happens when you do that - what does it mean?
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rubyaim
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 0:41:58
A good example is a page using tables for layout (and I still have several thousand).
Example Here
see also
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#wrapped-text
I check my 'css for layout' pages as well and actually can't see much difference between them and the 'tables for layout' as the 'tables for layout' were built to linearise...
IMO screen readers fall down on reading tables if they are only displaying the first line in a cell.
I have data tables where the text will wrap in cell showing something like a comment field, yet using a table is the logical way to display the data as it's tabular. I've changed most of my data tables to be 'accessible' and they linearise okay, but I've never tested them with a screen reader.
< Message edited by rubyaim -- 4/29/2006 0:52:42 >
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Tailslide
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 3:40:08
Far as accessibility goes - it passes Cynthia priorities 1 and 2 which is pretty good. Thing is with these automated checks is that they're more of a "gross error check" than a final score if you see what I mean.
I'd add in a focus rule like this:
#productDiv1 a:focus, #productDiv1 a:hover , #productDiv1 a:active {color: red;}
NB far as I know, you need the full div name to get the link to apply just to that div - if you leave it off it won't work as you want.
You'd also need to dump the px font-sizing and switch to a % or ems.
You've done an excellent job with what you've produced though - especially since I understand that it's db driven.
My only criticisms would be that because of the type of design you've gone for, which is very tight and precise it doesn't allow for any flexibility with text size increases etc. You'd ideally want a design that will take a minimum of 2 font-size increases in FF and to the largest text size in IE.
Also - you've got a ton of extra divs in there to support the rounded corners etc.
Far as those two criticisms go - please don't take them to heart - they're meant as something that you can take forward to your next design. I think (apart possibly from a few geniuses) ALL of us who use CSS layouts have gone through this stage - of using too many divs and of trying to "fix" the design/layout.
It will take a while to get the hang of making it more flexible and of using as few divs as possible or as necessary - have a look at this site: http://jasonspage.net/blog/nodiv/ There are absolutely no divs in that design. He's used the elements of the page themselves as the "hooks" to apply the styles to. I'm not suggesting that you try to do this - but I know from personal experience that it took me a while to realise that I didn't need <divs> around everything on the page.
These are just things to bear in mind for the future.
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yb2
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/29/2006 6:08:06
quote:
have a look at this site: http://jasonspage.net/blog/nodiv/
that is a very interesting link - less code = better code, IMO. It has been bookmarked!
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rdouglass
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 4/30/2006 22:20:57
quote:
have a look at this site: http://jasonspage.net/blog/nodiv/ There are absolutely no divs in that design.
OK no divs but not very exciting either. 
quote:
It will take a while to get the hang of making it more flexible and of using as few divs as possible or as necessary
And that's where it comes down to the issue. There is a line where you get that "law of diminishing returns' that'll kick in. I could spend eons tweaking a page, rewriting it, and refining it down to the absolut eleast number of divs, possible, the tightest code imaginable, accesable to the wazoo, etc. but will it really make that much difference?
quote:
Also - you've got a ton of extra divs in there to support the rounded corners etc.
Where is that line? So it takes me 4 divs to round my corners each time. I've been hearing how "too many inlines" and now "too many divs" will cause issues. And now I get shown a page with no divs and it looks very plain IMO.   
Do I really believe someones gonna' pay me to make a page like that one with no divs? I really doubt it no matter how technically cool it is.
And besides, if it's a truly "compliant" language in the strictest sense of the word, it shouldn't matter whether it's 1 div or 1000 divs. If they all use the same rules, it should not matter. (I know in most other "languages" a rule by definition can be relied on to work a certain way every time.)
And if this CSS styling works one way sometimes and another way sometimes - but don't use this too often kinda' thing - well it sounds pretty wishy-washy to me. I know that if I use 200 variables in a VBScript, I know I can count on those variables being predictable.
But thanks for the other advice - really does help.
< Message edited by rdouglass -- 4/30/2006 22:29:11 >
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c1sissy
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 5/1/2006 6:36:38
quote:
You'd also need to dump the px font-sizing and switch to a % or ems.
best way to do this, and i know you have seen my style sheets, in your body, html put your font size as you see it in my css sheets.
IMO, I think divs are fine and there is no problem with them, it depends on your layout. I used a fixed width then floats within, The last pages I did whne I passed them off for the next level of work passed both cynthia tests, so as long as I vailidate and pass cynthia, I am fine with how my pages are done.
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c1sissy
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RE: So what is the deal with Doctype? - 5/1/2006 6:58:33
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tailslide
quote:
ORIGINAL: c1sissy
IMO, I think divs are fine and there is no problem with them,
You're right they are - it's a question of not having unecessary ones to make your life easier 
So far no problem on my end, I comment begining and ending of each one, which I stress, to people on different forums when the post code that you have to wade through, COMMENT, I can't stress it enough, even if you have to put in a hack or soemthing different from your normal code,
If something is really complicated create a second style sheet for that item, I comment begining and ending of the navs on my style sheets, It is crucial to comment your stuff both xhtml and css
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