Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (Full Version)

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Nicole -> Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/2/2006 16:27:26)

I miss FoxyVoice!

I have a menu on some pages within a site that appear as in the image below. It serves as a way of showing a reader they're up to page 2 of 7, and it also doubles as links to other pages within that section of the site. I do have previous/next page links at the bottom of each page also.

I'm using a tooltip script on this site which I've decided upon after lengthy deliberation, and the only problem I now have with it is that it's displaying ALL title attributes (including the link titles in this menu and some images) with the same styles as the tooltips whereas I'd prefer they be displayed as usual (pale yellow background, black text etc.)

So I figured that I'd replace the title attribute of these links to an alt attribute, thinking that as I hadn't any script that'll turn alt attributes into tooltips. I wondered while doing this whether this was acceptable practice or was there something I was forgetting when doing this, so that's my first question.

My second question is about screen readers reading the links I have in the image provided. Upon checking Fangs, I found that neither the title nor alt attributes were being read by Fangs, in fact it was reading like this: 

Link one   vertical bar two   vertical bar Link three   vertical bar Link four   vertical bar Link five   vertical bar Link six   vertical bar Link seven   vertical bar Link eight


My code for this set of links looks like this: 

<tr>
         <td class="heading1"><h1><a class="main" id="main0" name="main">Cataracts</a></h1></td></tr>
        <tr>
         <td class="heading2"><p class="pages"><a class="pages" href="cataracts.asp" title="Cataracts Page 1">1</a> |
          <span class="pages">2</span> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts3.asp" title="Cataracts Page 3">3</a> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts4.asp" title="Cataracts Page 4">4</a> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts5.asp" title="Cataracts Page 5">5</a> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts6.asp" title="Cataracts Page 6">6</a> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts7.asp" title="Cataracts Page 7">7</a> |
          <a class="pages" href="cataracts-questions.asp" title="Cataracts Quiz Page">8</a></p></td>
        </tr>
       </table>


Now to a sighted viewer it's reasonably obvious that these are links to pages in a sequence, but to somebody vision impaired I doubt it's that obvious. Does anyone know why the title attribute isn't being read by screen readers, or is it only something that Fangs is getting wrong?

Also, any links to sites that also use sequential page links like this would be appreciated as I couldn't find any last night while looking. But you never find things when you need them do you?

Thanks in advance

Nicole

[image]local://upfiles/12879/39BC09F7526841E38DD06EA79FEC1D7C.jpg[/image]



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/2/2006 16:32:07)

Don't have time to look right now Nicole but there's a post somewhere by Rubyaim about where you can get the latest version of Foxyvoice. Do a search, I saw it recently.



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/2/2006 16:37:58)

It's the one below this one and it's about Fangs, that's how I found Fangs again.



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/3/2006 7:52:04)

quote:

Using Fangs does not replace testing your pages with the real thing. If you haven't bought a decent screen reader already you should do so immediately. It belongs to tools of the trade just like any other application you are using.


That should tell you quite a bit.



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/7/2006 5:13:00)

I thought my other computer may have still had the previous version of Firefox on it, and therefore would still have FoxyVoice. Unfortunately I must've updated it though, so I'm stuck at present for a screen reader.

I've done a bit of a search for different ones, and wondered what ones other forum members have?

In the meantime, does anyone know whether I can have an "alt" attribute in an anchor element? If so, will it perform the same function (more or less) as the "title" attribute?

Nicole



Tailslide -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/7/2006 8:51:42)

No you'd need to use titles for links - but be aware of not duplicating the link text as screenreaders will tell people that it's a link and then read out the link text so title text isn't always necessary (just if there's some doubt about where they'd be going).



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/7/2006 9:03:15)

No, at least you can't if you want to validate your code. Cynthia lets it through but XHTML doesn't.

There's an online Lynx viewer you can use.
http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html



Kitka -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/7/2006 22:44:49)

quote:

I thought my other computer may have still had the previous version of Firefox on it, and therefore would still have FoxyVoice. Unfortunately I must've updated it though, so I'm stuck at present for a screen reader.


Why not uninstall FF1.5.x and reinstall 1.0.8 on your old computer and then add Foxyvoice and only use it for testing? Both are still available for download from Mozilla if you don't have the old setup files.

Reading all the comments on the Foxyvoice page, there are many unhappy fans who would like to see a version for 1.5.x, so maybe it will happen. Then you'd be able update FF on your old computer again.



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (5/8/2006 18:02:17)

quote:


Why not uninstall FF1.5.x and reinstall 1.0.8 on your old computer and then add Foxyvoice and only use it for testing? Both are still available for download from Mozilla if you don't have the old setup files.


I didn't know that was possible once you'd installed the new version. Thanks for suggesting it Kitka, I'll probably do it today.

Nicole



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/26/2006 7:51:57)

Just found this link which probably belongs here:

http://www.sf.id.au/WE05/forms.html

Would be interested if anyone knows the answer to any of the areas not tested in this study, especially in respect of <img>.

Nicole



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/26/2006 9:12:26)

This might be useful too. There's a scetion halfway down that explains how readers deal with various items.

http://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/26/2006 20:04:37)

Really good article jaybee, thanks for posting it here!

Edit: I downloaded JAWS from one of the links at the bottom of the article, and interestingly it worked pretty much as the FANGS screen reader emulator shows the page content. But one thing that irritated me was that having downloaded it, all websites appeared rather scratchy, all headings and paragraphs etc., so I deleted JAWS and it's back to normal. Has anyone else noticed this?



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/30/2006 18:20:06)

Scratchy??? [sm=ask.gif]



d a v e -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 2:53:49)

nope just a bit itchy ;)



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 3:39:36)

Yes, it looked scratchy, the desktop and all applications including websites. To give you an idea, take a look at the text in the top right of my homepage, I know it's poor quality and it's going to be replaced soon, but that's what all text looked like on all websites and desktop items/other applications.

Nicole



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 6:58:57)

Jaws is a screenreader. The people who use it do so because they can't see the screen, therefore it really doesn't matter what it looks like, scratchy or otherwise..

Jaws takes a lot of resources, it also hooks into the browser and code so I'm not surprised things start to render a bit odd.

Jaws also has a myriad of settings. Different users will have different options turned on or off.

The problem with using it to check out your site is:

1. You're not blind, you still try to use visuals.
2. You're not a regular user
3. You have no idea what settings people have on or off.

Try blindfolding yourself and negotiating your site using Jaws. Remember, you know your site, a blind visitor doesn't. But also remember, they know how to use Jaws and you don't.

I was given a full copy of Jaws but I don't use it because I can't set it up right. There's also Window Eyes, Hal, Supernova. They're all different.

We're not talking Foxy Voice here which just reads a page. The professional readers are a completely different kettle of fish. If you want to see one in use, find a local club for the Blind and ask if you can go along and talk to a user with a view to sitting with them while they work with it.



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 7:15:20)

Thanks Jaybee,

I understand that and kind of figured that it was using parts of my pc that I didn't know that it would. I was hoping to use it for testing purposes, but now I may only do so on another computer down the track, perhaps when I update this one. It seemed like a good idea at the time and was a bit of a learning experience at the time.

The other point I was trying to make was that what I heard JAWS read of my site was almost identical to what FANGS screen reader emulator was putting up on the screen, and despite that being difficult and somewhat annoying to sit and read, it gave me an insite as to how pathetic table layouts really are and how convoluted some websites, including my own current site are to visually impaired people.

So, in my opinion at least, hats off to FANGS for providing their service as it's pretty close from what I can see to how a screen reader is reading sites to those who use them. The difficulty and annoyance I've found reading what FANGS produces is I've no doubt nothing compared to the difficulty faced by visually impaired people in going about their lives. All I can do in my role as a web designer is to understand as best I can with the resources I have available what they experience in navigating and negotiating the sites I produce.

And you're right, I have no idea what features they have turned on and off in their screen readers.

Points taken.

Thanks

Nicole



jaybee -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 7:35:48)

I wasn't having a go, just trying to get across that you can never get close unless you really learn to use one of the readers properly. Even then, someone else will be using a different one and getting different results. It's just another set of browsers from our point of view.

You do your best to make it "visible" in all of them. We can get our hands on test versions of the big guys but unless you are willing to invest a lot of time in learning to use them properly, you might as well go with a basic reader such as Fangs because all you're actually doing is listening to the text to make sure it reads right. You're not testing all the other functionality because you don't understand all the software.

What we all really need is a user base who will test for us and report back. I had a tester who used Supernova but he moved away. Was it something I said or were my sites really that bad? [&o]



Nicole -> RE: Alt Text, Title Text & Screen Readers (7/31/2006 7:51:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee

I wasn't having a go


Well you could've fooled me! Nah, just kidding Jaybee, but I was unsure I will admit, that's why I worded my response like that.

I note in response to other threads though, that some people have said that surely some responsibility must rest in the hands of the screen reader companies as to how they read certain things, and really, I understand that a screen reader is akin to a browser and therefore what these people are saying that "surely some responsibility rests in the hands of browser companies....." which in effect is saying that "surely Microsoft should accept some responsibility...." for their browser etc.

In the end we code for Firefox, tweak for Opera and feed IE a different style sheet, and just like this, we do our best for the various screen readers.

This is where I feel it's important to include a contact link in the accessibility statement for anyone using a screen reader to contact us with any problems they may be experiencing.

Nicole




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