Should I learn Java? (Full Version)

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Brandon -> Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 10:11:22)

hello everyone,

I only have to take one more computer class for an elective, and I will have my degree. So I was thinking about taking a java class. Do you think learning java will benefit me, or is it going to be a old language that people are going to stop using soon. Is java like any other coding language? I have already taken a C++ class, and I’m familiar with php and even a little asp. Just looking for some advice.

Thanks [:)]



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 10:24:05)

Java is an extremely powerful object-oriented language with roots in C++ - OO programming is the way of the future on the net. Microsoft, in their usual sincere form of lfattery (and cut-throat competition) literally "copied" Java in developing C# and C# is becoming huge. If I had a choice, I would learn C# over Jave but otherwise, take Java. Object Oriented Porgramming can be a little hard to wrap your head around but once you get it, you are part of the future. Large projects wont use scripting languages like VB Script (ASP) or PHP because those are interpreted and not compiled. The interpreted language is stored as source code and each line must be converted to executable before it is executed - one line at a time. this makes for slow execution - unnoticeable in smaller scale projects but huge in large ones. OO languages are compiled, stored as executable code which executes instantly when called.

Finally, there is the issue of classes - hundreds and thousands of pre-written code snippets that you basically "call" ( using older term here - in OO you instantiate an instance of the object) which allows you to piece together enormously complex programs with essentially cut/paste pre-written code.

go for it



jaybee -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 10:30:57)

Hang on, what other options have you got?



Brandon -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 10:46:01)

quote:

Hang on, what other options have you got?


Well my degree is in computer networking and I was thinking of taken java, because I design websites (amateur) for some extra cash on the side. Maybe someday down the road, when I am tried of being a networking guy, I will become a web designer. Anyways, for my degree I only have to take one more class from the list below.

Spreadsheets
Project Management
Visual BASIC
Java
Help Desk Concepts
Advanced C
Electronic Calendaring
Word Processing
COBOL



BeTheBall -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 10:52:49)

Given those choices I too would give Java a go. However, my view is slanted because my web work is for our corporate intranet and Java is the language of choice. PHP and ASP are not an option. Besides the majority of the topics you listed would put me to sleep.



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 11:00:56)

Spreadsheets if you dont know spreadsheets - well worth it - otherwise, no
Project Management - could be very valuable as you grow in your career
Visual BASIC - a choice though i still recommend "stretching" yourself into OO
Java
Help Desk Concepts - might fit with your degree
Advanced C -no
Electronic Calendaring -snooze city
Word Processing -yawn
COBOL - the 70's are over



jaybee -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 11:24:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brandon

quote:

Hang on, what other options have you got?


Well my degree is in computer networking and I was thinking of taken java, because I design websites (amateur) for some extra cash on the side. Maybe someday down the road, when I am tried of being a networking guy, I will become a web designer. Anyways, for my degree I only have to take one more class from the list below.

Spreadsheets
Project Management
Visual BASIC
Java
Help Desk Concepts
Advanced C
Electronic Calendaring
Word Processing
COBOL



Cooooooo choices, choices. Well it's obvious really.

COBOL!

The history of computing. Until you've written a report program and laid it all out using Pic x(nn) you haven't lived!! [:D]

I hate to say this but dpf is right. (spit spit)



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 11:26:02)

quote:

I hate to say this but dpf is right. (spit spit)
any bitter aftertaste?



ou812 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 13:19:28)

Given your choices, I like Java. BUT, you've already taken and learned C++. If you feel you technically have the OO down I don't think Java would be all that difficult to learn for you. Meaning, you may not need to take a class in it. I believe the Project Management course would be the way to go.

Lots of people can code but getting a project to run well seems to be hard for folks/companies. Although it may not be as fun to do, since you are getting a technical degree, the Project Management course will probably suit you better for a career move. Whether running the project, or just being a member and understanding how the project you are involved in is going, the class should give you a good idea of what basic steps and processes to get a project done. Something to use forever.

And if not, then COBOL! [:D] Didn't know they even taught that still. Hmm....



Brandon -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 13:50:44)

Thanks everyone,

Also the COBOL class is thought by this really old lady and I think when she retires in the next few years they will stop teaching the course at the college. She teaches COBOL and a class called logic and flowcharting. I think they don’t have the heart to tell her nobody uses COBOL anymore. [:o]

One more thing, is there a difference between JavaScript and Java? I hear both of them used by you guys.



jaybee -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 13:59:02)

Oh yes, HUGE difference between js and java.

And ummm are you implying that anyone who knows COBOL is an old lady?????? Hmmmmm?????



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 14:15:05)

as the old lady...er, jaybee says: huge diff. javascript is a scripting language that is interpreted and executed by the browser/client side. Java is a full featured, compiled object oriented programming language - it can be used to run server side web, client side (java applets) or stand alone desktop non-web applications



pbeverly -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 14:42:16)

I am not saying take COBOL, but it is far from dead. Where I work we have a HUGE Browser based insurance system. All the backend is running on mainframes with COBOL.



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 15:22:32)

quote:

but it is far from dead. Where I work we have a HUGE Browser based insurance system. All the backend is running on mainframes with COBOL.
you are right - tons of legacy mainframe systems still running with cobol. but if I were young (big if there) and looking to the future, i wouldnt waste a second on cobol. cobol is extremely limmited and harder to manage for future than modern object oriented programming although i was corrected on here one day by a guy who said there are oo versions of cobol so... who knows.



yb2 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 15:24:48)

quote:

COBOL - the 70's are over


Classic![:D]

It's difficult because half of programming is project management anyway, so it's a toss up between Java and PM.

Java will be around for a while, so don't worry about it going to waste. There'll always be someone running COBOL or C or FORTRAN ;) but most systems are moving on to newer languages.

If you're supporting a lot of Windows networks then VB isn't a bad choice because it will help you with scripting ( a real edge ). C# isn't used as a scripting language so the Java won't help you there.


I'd take the PM course, 60/40 in favour. And what the hell are Helpdesk Concepts???? You pick up the phone and fix the problem! Is that a 5 second course???[;)]

PS Network engineering will get boring pretty quickly, but you get to leave on time. Database guys are usually on call, and programmers are always working late because their projects have gone past deadline.



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 15:35:11)

quote:

programmers are always working late because their projects have gone past deadline.
so an important part of project managment is this Rule:
Rule 1: If you are the programmer, negotiate an hourly rate. If you are Project Manager, give the programmers a salary and work them to death. Programmers have no life anyway.



yb2 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 15:42:45)

Rule 2: Make sure BEFORE you start that the criteria for the product is nailed down, almost ridiculously - e.g. this menu is a drop down and will have 5 items, these are the 5 items, this is the style, this is the font, it posts the form on selection.
This is a button...

And then get everyone to sign a bit of paper agreeing to it. If you do that then the project will most likely be ok.


Rule 3: Never negotiate with dpf - he knows all the rules![:)]



Brandon -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 15:54:17)

quote:

ummm are you implying that anyone who knows COBOL is an old lady
hehe... [:D] I would never do that....

Does anyone know of any good sites or books about java? I think I'm going to check it out first and see what it's all about, before I pay the cash for a class. I'm also going to take a couple extra classes just to learn and I think I will take that Project man. class, and also a database class. Because I heard, databases are a good thing to know.



yb2 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 16:00:23)

quote:

Does anyone know of any good sites or books about java?


Head First Java and Head First Design Patterns. Don't get the patterns book till you know Java.



dpf -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 16:10:16)

quote:

Because I heard, databases are a good thing to know.
ok stop there- if you have already learned one programming language but no nothing of db's, I would recommend the db course over Java.



Brandon -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 16:30:40)

quote:

db course over Java
.....but databases seem soooooo boring......[8D] hehe..sorry that's my youth coming out. Thanks again for the advice guys and gals...



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 16:53:39)

quote:

Maybe someday down the road, when I am tried of being a networking guy, I will become a web designer

- If that's true, Java will be a great course. If you plan to move up the corp ladder, you might want to look into Project Management. One course isn't going to do much, but it will at least get you into the PM groove.

Since you have already taken C++, don't expect to benefit much from Java.

quote:

ok stop there- if you have already learned one programming language but no nothing of db's, I would recommend the db course over Java.

- Well said, databases are a key aspect to prgramming languages.

quote:

.....but databases seem soooooo boring......

- When you combine databases w/ programming, it brings an entire new look to software development.



rubyaim -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/5/2006 19:06:32)

Hi Brandon, what does Help Desk Concepts cover? Just courious really as I have to put in time at the help desk coalface from time to time.

BTW, I'll put in a vote for databases - they are not boring and can actually be a thrill a minute at times [&:]

I'm sure you will do well at whatever you choose. [:)]



Spooky -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 8:35:59)

Im just wondering if this thread is a little over the top - when you ask the difference between Java and javascript, it makes me wonder what you are going to use 'java' for? Are we specifically talking about Javascript? It doesnt seem if that distinction has been made



Brandon -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 11:17:16)

quote:

it makes me wonder what you are going to use 'java' for?


Just to learn something new. The class is java not javascript.



Spooky -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 11:22:38)

Just checking [:D]
Looks like you have some good skills behind you already



jaybee -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 11:39:57)

I really think, given what you've said you need to forget Java and go for databases. All the ads want database experience.

Project Management is a good route to go down but to be a good project manager you MUST have the skills to back you up. It's no good scheduling a week's worth of work when all the programmers know darned well that it's at least 2 weeks. It too easy to try and fit the project into the timescale the client is demanding and then find you can never hit your deadlines.

If you know you can do a particular task in one week you can also jump on the programmers who are trying to pull a fast one.

I worked my way up through the ranks so by the time I was managing large projects I could pretty much hit my deadlines spot on.

I still have a large poster on my wall from back then.

99% of the project takes 99% of the time
The other 1% of the project takes the other 99% of the time.



yb2 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 11:53:33)

quote:

t to be a good project manager you MUST have the skills to back you up


hmm, I don't think you necessarily need the skills, there are plenty of PMs who can run any sort of project well. If you make sure you plan well and agree tasks with the right people (in writing) then you have all you need. If you set a deadline of a week without speaking to the programmers first then you really are asking for it, regardless of your skills.

quote:

but databases seem soooooo boring


the theory is, but the practice is very interesting indeed.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 14:25:07)

quote:

hmm, I don't think you necessarily need the skills, there are plenty of PMs who can run any sort of project well.

- If the PM doesn't clearly understand the material, it makes things harder to manage. I do not know a single PM that didn't get to where he/she is today, without spending years right under another PM.



yb2 -> RE: Should I learn Java? (5/6/2006 16:16:33)

I was taught by a PM who started out in software and then moved to other projects that were based on things he knew very little about, and it wasn't a problem (according to him). He used the Deloitte & Touche methods and now uses Prince2.

What would be the point in learning project management if it couldn't be applied to projects where you didn't know about the product? It's just the same as learning software engineering - if you know OO then it doesn't really matter if it's Java or C# or C++, that's just syntax - the overall ideas are the same, and that applies to project management as a discipline.

Large projects that encompass several different disciplnes like engineering, building, architecture etc - how could anyone run those? Would they have to be an expert in everything????

Basically, as long as you ask an "expert" why do you need to be one?



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