Is it worth being honest? (Full Version)

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Nicole -> Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 3:10:11)

Once again I’ve gone and advised a client of ways they can save on website costs, and once again it’s cost me in the hip pocket. It’s the same client I’ve given advice to before, not always have they taken the advice (i.e. cheaper hosting for the same service, cheaper domain registration for the same service), but ways to save on updates they have, and this time on something which I estimated would cost an amount but within half an hour of doing it I realised that it was going to take 2.5 times as long and therefore cost 2.5 time more.

So I called them and told them it was going to take longer and cost more, did they wish to proceed, and naturally they’ve now decided not to. The end result is that I’ve lost the opportunity to earn that money because I was open and honest with them, something I’m sure they appreciate, but at the end of the day, that money won’t be coming my way.

I’ll email them a detailed explanation of what needs to happen and why, and also provide them with a few payment options, but really I know I’m flogging a dead horse.

I guess nobody’s going to admit being dishonest with clients, but knowing that there are probably many other designers out there that don’t disclose such benefits to their clients and therefore just earn the dollars regardless really annoys me.

Has anyone been thanked or even financially rewarded for being open or honest with clients? Has that client perhaps recommended your service to others as a result?

Nicole



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 4:22:42)

Being honest with your client and telling them where to find the same service for lower prices are two different things.

If I knew a competitor was having a sale on ecommerce, I wouldn't tell my client that who just signed with me. I wouldn't do it out of greed, but do it for the fact I think I could do a better job. The other day I had an odd print request, and I actually suggested them to a competitor. Although I didn't get the business, I got the A+ in their book. 90% of my sales are through referrals. I focus a lot on extra services that tend to keep me away from the rest.

Maybe there are a couple things you can do to try and get that edge over the competition? Things like this help prove why your business is a better choice.

quote:

Has that client perhaps recommended your service to others as a result?

- It's happened a couple of times.



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 4:35:45)

Thanks Bobby, I guess I could do something similar in the way of comparisons on my site.

I was also thinking that as this client is a charity in part, that I might offer to donate 10% of the reviewed price to one of their fundraisers? Heck, I already have a cheaper rate for non-profite (which this client is!)

The real bummer Bobby is, that when you have nothing, $100 is great, but when you do the sums and find that it's really going to take longer and therefore you tell them it's going to cost $200, they say no and you've done yourself out of everything!

They weren't asking for services for nothing, don't get me wrong. They called me to ask me something, I suggested a solution and had the go ahead for the "rough" price I gave over the phone, they knew I was going to go away and do the sums, and could've left it at that and invoiced them the higher amount. But being honest, I called them to ask if they still wanted to go ahead as it was going to cost more.

I'd have had to work my butt off for about 3 days doing it, but in 3 days I could've had a decent amount of money, but nothing like what it should cost them. Now I've lost that opportunity.

Nicole



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 4:49:24)

It's hard with these small websites (<$2000). When I quote projects, I proivde a couple levels of service. For example:

Let's say a client wants a full CMS system. I can quote a rough estimate of $2,000 for building one from scratch, or tell them we could use postnuke/mambo/etc with a skin applied to it for $1,200, or integrate an external CMS for $800. For a business that can spend $2,000, they would go with the best solution, however, if they reject that, you still have two more options for the client. By doing this, you don't lose the client right after the initial proposal.

When I go to your website, I see three services: Web Creation/Redesign/Maintenance. What about hosting and domain registration? SSL certificates to ensure your client's information is sent encrypted over the internet?

And while I'm on the subject of your website, two quick suggestions: put an underline under the links, they look the same as the text. your logo looks semi-dull with the grey border, having the same white border on the logo as you do on the navigation, will make the logo stand out a lot more. Your entire website looks awesome, the colors work very well, it has that design feel to it. [:)]



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 4:54:52)

I'm glad you like it Bobby, actually I'm about to get rid of it and upload a new CSS lauout design like this one:

http://www.users.on.net/~nicoleoz/opening-page.htm

The about page is also finished.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 5:03:30)

The new design looks good too. I still picture that logo text with a 1-2px white border [8|]

I'm off to bed!



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 5:08:37)

quote:

I'm off to bed!


Good, this isn't a critique thread anyway.[:D]



rdouglass -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 9:06:21)

It *always* pays to be honest....eventually.[;)]



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 9:15:57)

Well that's what I figure Roger, and it's of course easier to sleep at night knowing you've done the right thing. It is frustrating however that had I just stuck to my original "rough" quote I could've been earning a decent amount of money instead of nothing at all.

Of course when my days are chock full of other equally paying jobs I won't bat an eyelid at letting this slip.

But as mentioned, when you're struggling, working your butt off for what would equate to about just less than half your normal rates, half my normal rate for non-profits it IS better than nothing.

Thanks for responding. Anyone else from the Douglas family care to respond?



Donkey -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 9:48:04)

Sorry I'm not a Douglas, but I have a comment anyway. (you'll have to pretend I'm long lost cousin Cleatus Douglas)

If you quote for a job and then find that you have underestimated I would say that you have to try and compromise because part of the fault is yours. I had this situation a few times when I was a carpet fitter (many years ago when my knees were in much better shape). The way I used to handle it was to speak to the customer and say something like;

" I underestimated the time it would take to do this job, and I am going to be seriously out of pocket if I do it for the original estimate. At my normal hourly rate I should charge you an extra £200 but in the circumstances I feel I should bear a part of the cost so I propose charging you another £100."

Most customers will accept that; the odd one (I had one) that starts ranting and raving about keeping to the estimate you just do for the original price and put it down to experience. That way at least you make something out of it and if that customer ever comes back for another job you load your price by 50% because you know they are going to be trouble and you don't really care if they go elsewhere.



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 9:55:28)

Thanks Donkey,

I'm in the process of writing an email stating just what you've said, I'm also proposing that my original rough quote be accepted with $200 more added that I donate back to 2 causes they support and fund raise for, not sure if that's acceptable practice though?

I'll post my email here in a few minutes.



swoosh -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 9:56:15)

At least you can sleep better and feel good about yourself. I understand that it's hard to swallow when it comes at a time that you could have used it. Your honesty will pay off in the end Nicole.



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 10:07:57)

Thanks Swoosh,

Actually I can't post my response here, but I'll let this thread know of any further developments.

Nicole



Taz -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 12:13:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Donkey


If you quote for a job and then find that you have underestimated I would say that you have to try and compromise because part of the fault is yours. I had this situation a few times when I was a carpet fitter (many years ago when my knees were in much better shape). The way I used to handle it was to speak to the customer and say something like;

" I underestimated the time it would take to do this job, and I am going to be seriously out of pocket if I do it for the original estimate. At my normal hourly rate I should charge you an extra £200 but in the circumstances I feel I should bear a part of the cost so I propose charging you another £100."

Most customers will accept that; the odd one (I had one) that starts ranting and raving about keeping to the estimate you just do for the original price and put it down to experience. That way at least you make something out of it and if that customer ever comes back for another job you load your price by 50% because you know they are going to be trouble and you don't really care if they go elsewhere.


Sometimes people need reminding the actual meaning of the word estimate.
quote:

A statement of the approximate cost of work to be done, such as a building project or car repairs.

An estimate should be flexible both ways, if less time is required/less materials are needed then it should drop, of course clients like it when it happens this way. That said, they should be prepared to lay out more cost if it happens to fall the other way & you have unestimated for the job. An estimate in our field is a best/educated guess judging from the workload and type usually established on prior work of the same type, each different variable in that job and work can change the time frame or work amount/output at the end.

Staggered offers for the job is a good idea I think, at least that way you give them a choice of what they can go for and so long as the smallest amount version is still worth your time and effort you should pretty much always come out on top.



rdouglass -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 13:10:02)

quote:

Sometimes people need reminding the actual meaning of the word estimate.


Good advice that I need reminding of as well. Needs to be explained up front especially when many people percieve 'estimate' and 'proposal' to be the same thing when of course they're not when you look at them side-by-side.



Donkey -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 13:15:59)

In the UK a 'proposal' is as loose if not looser than an 'estimate' the firm version we call a 'quotation'.
Divided by a common language.



Taz -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 13:23:00)

The point is though we can hide behind the dictionary if we have to! [:D]

Not our fault they took the meaning wrong is it. [image]http://ganjataz.com/Forum/images/smiles/me-likey.gif[/image]



rdouglass -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 13:48:34)

quote:

In the UK a 'proposal' is as loose if not looser than an 'estimate' the firm version we call a 'quotation'.
Divided by a common language.


For sure. Over here, we recieve RFP's (Requests For Proposals) and they are considered a valid bid or 'quotation' as you would say.



womble -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 14:00:40)

Interesting though the debate about who calls what what is (does that make sense? <hehe>), it's also a useful reminder that if you're dealing with a client from another country, what you mean and what they think you mean due to the language differences can have a big impact on how your relationship with the potential client goes.



Nicole -> RE: Is it worth being honest? (7/20/2006 20:49:42)

We can hang on words all we like I think, but I don't think it's kind of proper to do that, and I don't think it's a good way to start a relationship with a client. If you KNOW the client, even just from the tone of their voice or the fact they immediately respond to this original figure, whether it be an estimate, proposal or quote, I think you should make yourself very clear and that's about all you can do.

In this case I didn't. The client immediately accepted my rough guestimate, which is the reason I called him back having realised it was going to cost more using my usual rates to work it out, because he did jump at my original figure but I knew I just couldn't bill him the at the other figure without either not getting paid or ruining our existing good relationship.




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