Future of FrontPage Discussion

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truwebs -> Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:15:48)
Now that MS is phasing out FrontPage and moving to Expression, is it worth the time and effort to even build under the FP platform anymore? Any idea how long it will be before we need to convert all of our FP DRW to ASP.NET? I would guess this site will be phased out over time as well. How long do you thing before FP is a memory? TRU

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:25:56)
Given that there are still people running on Windows 95 I suspect FP will be around for some considerable time. There is nothing to stop you using FP to develop for ever more, you just have to stay away from the bot driven stuff. Expression will take over and eventually MS will stop supporting FP. If Win 98 is anything to go by then you've got around 7 or 8 years but I reckon they'll pull support way earlier than they would for an OS. I suspect though that it's not FP you need to worry about, it's the FPSEs. How long before MS stop support for those or the hosts stop installing them. To be honest if you have the chance I'd go with the new stuff sooner rather than later as the code it produces is far nicer, cleaner and much more compliant.

ksmart -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:37:00)
I haven't researched this much - but will there be an upgrade or is Expression a totally new package?

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:42:10)
quote: ORIGINAL: ksmart I haven't researched this much - but will there be an upgrade or is Expression a totally new package? Completely new. Totally different architecture. You can download a beta here

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:45:55)
It's important to note that the name for the first build of "Expression Web" was "FrontPage 12." MS decided to change the name in order to give the product a chance with died-in-the-wool FP bashers. It's still FrontPage to me because the interface is pretty much the same thing I've been using for the last 8 years. I have a few hosting clients who are still using FP 98. I have hundreds of clients who are still using 2000. I don't know that they will ever upgrade. Based on their needs, they won't have to in the forseeable future. It does, however, depend upon your needs. Will hosts continue to have servers that support old software? Yes. There are millions of FP users out there who have no burning reason to upgrade. There are defintely some hosts who want to do away with support for FP server extensions. Very few will actually pull the trigger, however. It's pretty difficult to move forward with a decision that will certainly result in angry customers and lower sales. t

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 12:53:34)
Expression is "completely new" in the way it writes code and the code it writes, but the menus and file management interface are pretty much the same as they've been since FP 97. t

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 13:00:43)
So you think they'll offer an upgrade? The MS guy I was talking to a few weeks ago reckoned it wasn't feasible to upgrade the existing software and that it'd need a total replacement. I suppose they could do that and call it an upgrade to stop all the FP users going bananas. As to the FPSEs I'll be interested to see who stops supporting them. I know one of my Unix hosts can't wait to get rid, he says they're the bane of his life. IMHO you'll see Unix support dropping out way before Windows hosts do.

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/13/2006 13:20:35)
I'm correcting this post because someone here found confirmation that MS will be offering upgrade pricing for current owners of FP. There is no question that the tech people at most hosts would be thrilled to get rid of FP server extensions. Their bosses, in most cases, will not let them. Such has been the case since the first FP97 extensions were distributed to the hosting industry. New servers offering new hosting packages will likely not have FPSE's installed at some point within the next few years. But there will always be available space on older servers. The extensions are already there. It would be harder for the hosts to get rid of them than to just leave them there. t

truwebs -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 8:22:33)
Jaybee, All points are well made. I guest my concern is the support for the FPSE. The big question is how long with hosts stay with the FPSE. Time to learn Expression. With all the different versions. My next concern is which verision to learn first. Which application best represents the FP capabilities? Expression... Visual Studio ... etc. TRU quote: ORIGINAL: ksmart I haven't researched this much - but will there be an upgrade or is Expression a totally new package?

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 9:10:50)
Tom can probably advise you best on that as I haven't touched Visual Studio, but given that Expression looks like it's going to be the big boy and will have its stablemates as standalone applications I would guess that's the one to go for if it's serious stuff. Of course you could always forget all of them and learn to hand code XHTML and CSS. [:D]

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 9:27:28)
My understanding is that Visual Studio is for scripting/database guys, and Expression is for look-and-feel guys. I'm not saying that a db guy would not have any use for Expression. I'm just saying that VS is going to be far more powerul for big-time coders. The purpose of Expression is to facilitate the collaboration between the db guys and the design guys. That's been a major issue in large scale projects since this industry began. If you're more of a coder then Visual Studio has always been one of the top choices for you. There's no debate about that. If you're more of a designer then Expression is going to be a great choice especially if you work on projects along side VS users. t

KathyK -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 11:48:31)
Question from a beginner -- will you be able to work on sites you have built in Front Page once you have shifted to Expression? Meaning -- will there be functionality loss or any other import issues or will it "feel" like an upgraded FP for the most part?

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 11:56:04)
I work on FP created sites all the time with EW. I think it looks more like FP 2003 than 2003 looked like 2002. EW doesn't hurt the FP functionality unless you tell EW to purify the code. Then the FP webbot tags may get deleted. t

truwebs -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 12:03:43)
Hmmm? I am a TWEENER! ha ha Stuck beTWEEN disigner and coder. I have used FP since its birth and have become quite dependent on the DRW features. When needed I venture out to third party asp scripts and modifiy as needed. Should I learn both VS and Expression? Sounds like that work together well or should I lean towards VS and keep Expression as a background application? Ultimately I want the power of using / learning ASP.Net TRU

360texas -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 12:16:41)
I have a rather extensive website created and managed using FP2003. One of the nice features I use alot is the Navigation structure chart.. where you just drag a newly created page over and insert it into organization diagram. My rather antique nav header bar and footer are FP bots server side includes. My nav bar is placed in the header. I used a plugin component called MenuPlus because it is stable and works with the Navigation organizational chart. To see what I am talking about visit http://360texas.com It all works rather well - management is easy. Does WebExpressions have similar mangement organization features ? Dave

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 12:21:35)
Expression has a navigation view flow chart to allow you to work with FP link bars. I don't know if it would be compatible with the Menuplus plugin. You might want to ask the vendor about that. t

billschroeder -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 12:39:30)
Here are two items from the Expressions FAQ Will there be an upgrade path from FrontPage to Expression Web? Yes! If you are a FrontPage owner you automatically qualify for a very attractive upgrade price. Details about pricing will be announced as soon as they are available. Can I use Expression Web to work on files created in FrontPage? Yes. You can use Expression Web to open Web sites created in any version of FrontPage and edit existing page content. However, one of the objectives of Expression Web is to help you create high-quality Web sites based on today's standards and technologies such as Webbots which have now been superseded by ASP.NET controls with the same or similar functionality; therefore, you will not be able to add new page elements of this type. We are planning on providing a range of resources to assist FrontPage users in migrating their legacy sites to fully conform to these new standards.

Nick -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 12:57:21)
I use FP2000 at home and FP2002 at church. I have no desire to learn a new software to create web sites. Good to know that folks like me will not have to anytime soon... (i hope!) Nick

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 15:21:39)
quote: ORIGINAL: billschroeder Here are two items from the Expressions FAQ Will there be an upgrade path from FrontPage to Expression Web? Yes! If you are a FrontPage owner you automatically qualify for a very attractive upgrade price. Details about pricing will be announced as soon as they are available. Can I use Expression Web to work on files created in FrontPage? Yes. You can use Expression Web to open Web sites created in any version of FrontPage and edit existing page content. However, one of the objectives of Expression Web is to help you create high-quality Web sites based on today's standards and technologies such as Webbots which have now been superseded by ASP.NET controls with the same or similar functionality; therefore, you will not be able to add new page elements of this type. We are planning on providing a range of resources to assist FrontPage users in migrating their legacy sites to fully conform to these new standards. Two things leap out at me from that lot.... quote: you automatically qualify for a very attractive upgrade price I bet my idea of attractive and their idea of attractive are wildly different. quote: providing a range of resources to assist FrontPage users in migrating their legacy sites to fully conform to these new standards Now that I will be intrigued to see. There is nothing around at the moment that converts FP invalid code and bots to compliant. If they can pull it off it'll be a minor miracle but I somehow have sneaking doubts.

davids -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 15:43:41)
I had to rebuild my computer last month and tried to find the Front Page Server Extensions from Microsoft. No way. Apparently there was a security issue so they dropped them. I looked for SharePoint extensions, but they only work on Windows Server. I was just lucky to find the original FPSE download saved onto disk here. As far as I can tell, FPSE is out the door and I can't tell what we are supposed to be running locally for development. Visual Studio seems to be the right way to go for coding and more challenging DB operations. The .NET Framework is Microsoft's clear direction. MS doesn't seem to see the need for a server-side scripting language. I didn't make the jump from self-taught ASP to ASP.NET and instead rely on contractors to produce the code. I suppose I will continue with FP 2003 until forced to upgrade, since I only use it as a site maintenance tool anyway.

Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 15:47:03)
quote: Webbots which have now been superseded by ASP.NET controls So is this all shot to he11 if you're not running on a Windows box?

Thomas Brunt -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 16:12:21)
Most of the sites I work on reside on Linux boxes. I'm not having any trouble with that. t

Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 16:31:23)
WHew!

jaybee -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (9/14/2006 16:48:24)
quote: I had to rebuild my computer last month and tried to find the Front Page Server Extensions from Microsoft. No way. Apparently there was a security issue so they dropped them. Ah HA!! Thanks, there's a guy on here who has been turning the web upside down looking for them. I'll point him at your post.

360texas -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 11:05:05)
Well I finally downloaded Expression Beta 1. It says 190mb but it turned out to be 201mb. Using aDSL 786kbps it took 40 minutes. I downloaded it to a folder on my external 160gb hard drive. Burned a copy to CD-r for archiving. I already had asp.net 2.0 installed. I had not installed any Office 2007 content. The install was very smooth. No glitches. Yes I still run MS FrontPage 2003. They seem to operate concurrently quite well. Some observations: Web Expressions - seems focused on individual page building Several templates come with it.. but are only plain jane duplicates with slightly different page layouts. No automatic site navigation map type management It does have 3 types of menu bars... but for them to work you need to create an XML text layout of your site in order to make the the 3 types of menu bars to work. Currently it is not SITE Management oriented. So layout your site on paper. Build each page separately. Create a menu page.. and copy and paste the menu code into each page. (back to pre Frontpage era). Currently does not have Bots for INCLUDE pages, although you can grab a previous created (FP2003) 'Footer' include page code snippet and paste it into your Expression page and it will work. Meaning it will display properly in the Designer window as well as in the browser view. All you need to do is change the grayed out bot code from /include/footer.htm to /include/menu.htm. It is not clear if using some of the bot code will require you to use ASP on the server. We don't use a window server. We use a straight up Apache server and FTP content. We have not been successful in uploading an Expression site yet.. still hasseling around learning how to turn OFF the automatic CSS code function. Still learning how to build a simple 4 page website. Currently we do not plan to convert our 400+page website to Expression because of the lack of Expression Global Site Management tools. More to come... I work with Expressions a little bit each day.

Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 11:39:35)
quote: ORIGINAL: 360texas ... Several templates come with it.. but are only plain jane duplicates with slightly different page layouts. No automatic site navigation map type management ... you need to create an XML text layout of your site in order to make the the 3 types of menu bars to work. Currently it is not SITE Management oriented. So layout your site on paper. Build each page separately. Create a menu page.. and copy and paste the menu code into each page. (back to pre Frontpage era). Currently does not have Bots for INCLUDE pages... ... Still learning how to build a simple 4 page website. Sounds like it sucks major amounts of arse as far as I'm concerned. My magic is with fast development times and site updates. Nav view, shared borders, includes, etc, are my site management meat and potatoes. Looks like the magic is gone ... [:(]

BobbyDouglas -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 12:09:15)
quote: My magic is with fast development times and site updates. Nav view, shared borders, includes, etc, are my site management meat and potatoes. - Expression is not being made for people like you. MS is completely dropping support for all the wonderful web components that FrontPage had. Instead of making two programs one for "developers" and another for "developers who want easy to use web components", MS just decided to drop the web components. If I ever build a site that requires a web component, I open up FP and very quickly insert one. It takes maybe 10% of the time to go find a decent PHP script and implement/test it. I won't be downgrading to Expression. The question now is, what will be the next FrontPage? Who is going to make an easy to use WYSIWYG that has the entire package (easy interface, web components, etc..)?

caz -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 12:54:14)
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BobbyDouglas -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 12:58:04)
Sorry.... Those are NOTHING compared to FP 03. You're looking at two different things caz.

caz -> RE: Future of FrontPage Discussion (10/16/2006 13:08:06)
No, I am looking at the future for hobbyists.

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