WARNING: We found the following unfriendly robot Refresh Tag in this document. We suggest you remove this Tag before submitting to any robot type search engine:

<meta HTTP-EQUIV="REFRESH" CONTENT="5; URL=http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi?page=startshopping.html&cart_id=&session_id_place=">

Pete

Let me break it down for you. Yes I would optimize for candle and candles. What I would do though is this. I would only use one or two sets of keywords or keyword phrases per page. On your index page start out with a very highly competitive set of keywords/phrases, generic though like say candle and candles. Limit it down to two maybe three keyword phrases. Now on the index page do a very short blurb on say votive candels. In that paragraph use a keyword phrase for votive candles. Make a hyperlink out of the keyword phrase and have that go to a page that explains what a votive candle is. By doing this you have a better chance of ranking high on sets of keywords. There is a lot more that I left out but this should get you going.

Brian

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Work hard, play fair, stay sane

Pete

In your case I would create some flat/static pages for this.

On SE's only pointing to the index page, nope. I hand submitted some pages that show up and the spider crawls also found some.

Brian

------------------
Work hard, play fair, stay sane

You wrote:
In your case I would create some flat/static pages for this.

** I understand this part, I wish I could, but I can't... The unique cart id needs to carry along from point of entry to point of exit... I'm open to any ideas to work "around" this though!

Then you wrote:
On SE's only pointing to the index page, nope.

** I figured that, I have a list of SE's that do this... I understand.

Then you wrote:
I hand submitted some pages that show up and the spider crawls also found some.

** Ok, I lost here. Could you explain that in meta-newbie terms? Did the spider find urls that looked like:

http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi?page=votivecandles.html&cart_id=6173165A1259&session_id_place=

If so, that's not good since a person clicking in on that link will be assigned a used cart_id and the whole world will explode into lots of little pieces (well, something like that; but still a bad thing)...

Thanks for all your time!

Pete

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Real Dippin Pete:
Ok, I'll admit it, I'm lost.

You wrote:
In your case I would create some flat/static pages for this.

** I understand this part, I wish I could, but I can't... The unique cart id needs to carry along from point of entry to point of exit... I'm open to any ideas to work "around" this though!

---

Couldn't suggest one unless you start the cart seesion at a sub page. Which it seems to do here [URL=http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi

So why not on the index page setup some links to static pages there before the session is started?

quote:

---

Then you wrote:
On SE's only pointing to the index page, nope.

** I figured that, I have a list of SE's that do this... I understand.

Then you wrote:
I hand submitted some pages that show up and the spider crawls also found some.

** Ok, I lost here. Could you explain that in meta-newbie terms? Did the spider find urls that looked like:

http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi?page=votivecandles.htm l&cart_id=6173165A1259&session_id_place=

If so, that's not good since a person clicking in on that link will be assigned a used cart_id and the whole world will explode into lots of little pieces (well, something like that; but still a bad thing)...

Thanks for all your time!

Pete

---

Nope what I mean is when a spider comes into your site it looks at your index page first. It then looks at the links and follows them, keep in mind that it won't spider ? in URLs. It also, should , look at robots.txt and see what it is allowed to spider and what it is not. It also walks through your directories on it's own.

Sorry to make it confusing, hope this clarified things for you .

Brian

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Work hard, play fair, stay sane

I think that might be a way to go...

Not too sure yet...

Thanks for the clarification!

Pete

Just to follow up:

WARNING: We found the following unfriendly robot Refresh Tag in this document. We suggest you remove this Tag before submitting to any robot type search engine:

<meta HTTP-EQUIV="REFRESH" CONTENT="5; URL=http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi?page=startshopping.html&cart_id=&session_id_place=">

What's the story with this? What does it do and why is it bad??

Thanks,

Pete

The spider cannot follow that link, even if it didn't have a ? in it. It's going to hit that page, think there's nothing on it, and leave.

A lot of times that code is used on pages for old domain names or sometimes improperly done doorway pages. In other words, they usually don't contain content relevant to the site.

When a search engines come to a site, they want keywords, description, and content. Keywords carry no weight if they are not also used in the body of the page.

Sandy

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Stu Reilly Design
TheTemplateStore
Allegheny Web
Dreamweaver Sites

[This message has been edited by Goober (edited 11-22-2001).]

Does the content on that page have to be in form of links or can it simply be those same words?

What I'm thinking is have the keywords appear as text, only in the same color as the background, to satisfy what you are saying.

Will this work?

Now I'm worried.

Pete

Sorry.

They don't have to be links. Search engines (and viewers) expect when they enter a site that they will immediately find what they are looking for. Your second page, with the tart candle, would be a great index page.

Sandy

------------------
Stu Reilly Design
TheTemplateStore
Allegheny Web
Dreamweaver Sites

[This message has been edited by Goober (edited 11-22-2001).]

The index.html is the only page within the site that isn't passed through the webstore script...

What the heck am I going to do??

Pete

Yeah, that one has all the key "info" that the search would like, only how the heck can I get past the part that at that point the CartId has been assigned already.

The funny part is, if you go here: flydepot.com you'll see he was able to do it without the first page I have...

any ideas?

Pete

http://www.iboost.com/promote/search_engines/meta_tags/00014.htm

Looks like good info. (It had what you were saying about the background trick... you know your stuff!! )

What to do now?

--- Pete

http://www.extropia.com/support/bbs.html

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

and I found this:

---->

In your virtual host configuration for Apache
(this can also be done with other web server software, but
I'm familiar with apache) set your DocumentRoot to the path
of the CGI script. For example, your current DocumentRoot
definition may be:

DocumentRoot /home/user/public_html

change this to:

DocumentRoot
/home/user/public_html/cgi-bin/webstore/webstore.cgi

Modify this for your correct path of course. Now when
someone goes to www.yourdomain.com it will start at the CGI.
If you do not have this much access on your system, you'll
have to ask your system admin to do this for you.

<--------

I think this just got out of the scope of the this thread, but if for some reason, anyone has any ideas... please say 'em!

Pete

My keywords area of the meta looks like this (at the moment)

<META NAME="Keywords" CONTENT="candle,candles,wholesale candle,wholesale candles,candle favor,candle favors,favor,favors,pillar candles,pillar candle,votive candles,votive candle,votive,votives,extra scented,aromatherapy,container candles,beeswax,jar candle,jar candles,taper,tapers,wedding,unity,wax,guide,burning,large candle selection,low price,candle holder,candle holders,assortment,assortments,floating,candle burning guide,candle help,candle burning help,bulk candles,low priced candles,animal candles,people candles,dragon candles,wizard candles,wizard candle,dragon candle,people candle,animal candle,flower candles,flower candles,scented candle,scented candles,unscented candle,unscented candles,votive candle holder,votive candle holders,unity candle set,dripless candles,smokeless candles,dripless candle,smokeless candle,treasure candle,treasure candles,dripping candles,dripping candle,birthday candle,birthday candles,cute candle,cute candles,money candle,money candles,cake candle,cake candles">

Every meta keyword tester I run say I've got too many duplicates. Yet they say to use phrases... so what the heck? for example, should I just have "treasure" once and "candle" once and "pillar" once, instead of "treasure candle" and "pillar candle" ???

This is my other significant issue...

Pete

The theory I use is not to list more than 12 keywords/phrases and never repeat a word more than three times.

All in all, keywords aren't even that relevant for a lot of search engines anymore and seem to be less of an issue all the time. There are other, more important issues, such as making sure your title is good. Some search engines concentrate on the description. Some (like Google) really like other, subject-related sites linking to you.

I would have to say getting a good ranking with Yahoo would be the best thing you could do for your site. Remember, they are a directory, not a search engine, and and your site will be reviewed by real people before getting listed (same with DMOZ I believe). I have also read that they use Netscape on which to view sites. Remember...being real people...the things that viewers like and dislike. It costs $299 to submit your site to them, but if you had a good rank, it would more than pay for itself in a short period of time.

As far as your shopping cart, I'm afraid I don't know anything about CGI, but I don't understand why someone has to be tracked through every page of the site. The important thing, it seems to me, is getting the items in the shopping cart, getting them added up, and paid for. Why do they have to be captured on the first page? Why not when they choose to purchase their first item?

Sandy

------------------
Stu Reilly Design
TheTemplateStore
Allegheny Web
Dreamweaver Sites

Ok, I'll try and insert my 2 cents after some of your points...

Keywords are a real controversy that I have worried over myself.

** Glad to see I'm not alone.

What I would suggest is to do a search on Google with some of those keywords and see what you get, then look at the source code of the top sites listed to see how they did their keywords. Likely, you will find quite a mix of results.
The theory I use is not to list more than 12 keywords/phrases and never repeat a word more than three times.

** Makes good sense! I notice few places do use more than 12, just like you said!

All in all, keywords aren't even that relevant for a lot of search engines anymore and seem to be less of an issue all the time. There are other, more important issues, such as making sure your title is good. Some search engines concentrate on the description. Some (like Google) really like other, subject-related sites linking to you.

** Figures, I always worry over silly things that don't end up adding to anything (Isn't that a song or something? )

I would have to say getting a good ranking with Yahoo would be the best thing you could do for your site. Remember, they are a directory, not a search engine, and and your site will be reviewed by real people before getting listed (same with DMOZ I believe). I have also read that they use Netscape on which to view sites. Remember...being real people...the things that viewers like and dislike. It costs $299 to submit your site to them, but if you had a good rank, it would more than pay for itself in a short period of time.

** Yes, since it is a "commercial" site, I did read that. And I agree 100% it is worth the $299.

As far as your shopping cart, I'm afraid I don't know anything about CGI, but I don't understand why someone has to be tracked through every page of the site. The important thing, it seems to me, is getting the items in the shopping cart, getting them added up, and paid for. Why do they have to be captured on the first page? Why not when they choose to purchase their first item?

** I know, it doesn't make sense, but that when you look in the url box of the browser, you'll see that it "passes" along a cart variable from page to page, back and forth. That is how this particular script works. It has many faults, but all in all, once you get it where you want (and learn CGI - UGH!) I really do like it. -- but since this whole thing started better have come around... that's a whole 'nother story.

Well, it would seem my host has a way to make my "Tart Candle" (main) page the index file, complete with the cart issues and all. They're workin' on it now... very happy if this works out. (I think these guys are great! -- they practically thought me Perl/CGI) Anyhow... We'll see how that goes. This is a great thread and I can't thank you enough for takin' the time out of your day for me, and all the other people you help!

Pete

Anyway, I think Sandy's advice about looking at other sites and seeing what they have done with keywords is excellent - as is all her other advice.

A couple of small things you may find useful.

This site has a very handy (and free) ulility which allows you to drag the keywords out of sites - not just the ones in the metatags but the ones in the content - and see the words they have used and how they have used them. I have found it interesting and useful. It will also grab the words out of pages on your site and let you make keywords and keyphrases from words that actually do exist in your content - as Sandy pointed out that is important.

http://www.analogx.com/

The other one is the Overture word suggestion tool - they keep moving it so I cannot give you a url but if you go to http://www.overture.com , choose 'Sign Up' on the right, then choose 'Self Serve' about half way down the next page, then on the next page you will see a link top right to 'Search Term Suggestion Tool'

Enter the word candle in the search box and that tool will tell you the actual terms that people search for which include the word 'candle'.

These are the top 10 for candle as a matter of interest, with the number of searches (on sites where overture is used) in the last month:

24238 candle making
17426 yankee candle
11723 candle holder
11663 gel candle
8282 candle making supply
7994 scented candle
5677 candle supply
5560 wholesale candle
5021 candle favor
4863 candle wedding favor

That is a hell of a lot of searches. Excuse my ignorance but what is a Yankee candle?

What I tend to do when getting key phrases together is copy the whole lot of them into Notepad, remove the off topic ones and then make usre that the most popular ones are in my description tag and that at least the top 10 relevant ones are in my index page.

You need to do this while maintaining some sort of decent english - after all your description is not just for robots, people will see it too on the search results and it needs to look like your's is the site they want.

Bear in mind that more and more the search engines are improving at being able to filter the wheat from the chaff. They are using everything they can to ensure that sites with real content, relevant to the search term, are returned. This while getting the keywords/phrases and descriptions right is important, nothing is so important as good focused content. Your main page has this in bucketfuls so that gives you a head start.

------------------
Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

[This message has been edited by abbeyvet (edited 11-22-2001).]

My host did the trick, which leads me to my next question:

www.buyacandle.com now goes directly to the "main page" no more of that "gateway page" (you know, the enter here type deal...) I assume THIS is where I want to put all my meta info now, correct? Also, what will the search engines link to? buyacandle.com or the (that the gateway use to bring you to)?: http://buyacandle.com/webstore/web_store.cgi?page=startshopping.html&cart_id=&session_id_place=

In any event, I know I've said it a million times, but all I can say is "Wow" you guys are just simply amazing!!

Pete

Yes, that is the page where you need to do the business with your keywords/description etc. Don't forget to seed your text with the 'top' search phrases also, though actually I think you have done that pretty well already.

Your hosts seems to be pretty good and helpful - who arw they as a matter of internet? If you would rather not say that's ok.

------------------
Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

The connections seem very fast even during heavy times, and multiple sim. db access on the site. Great people. Period.

(Gosh I sound like an ad for them... lol)

Seems like they did the trick, I'm going to tinker around a bit...

Pete