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rubyaim
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:09:36
Nick, I have a very large site based on this template.
To start with I removed the use of a theme (and the FP navigation thing) and changed to CSS for 'pretty', then I changed it from table layout to CSS layout. Using a template, and then modifying it, is a great way to learn. I can edit it in FP, DW, Notepad or whatever with no issues at all.
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Nick
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:12:36
That's it Tailslide, thanks...
Ruby, you are so far beyond me it's scary... :) I honestly took one look at CSS (a while ago) and said forget it, I will stick with tables. I am afraid some day I will be forced to learn more than I care to. But I will do what is necessary to keep our church having a decent web presence.
As you all can tell I am sick about the impending death of FP.
Nick
< Message edited by Nick -- 12/5/2006 16:19:54 >
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rubyaim
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:32:36
quote:
I agree Jay and Tail on the benefits of knowing the code behind.
If you are getting paid to create a site then you really have to know the code - and that includes people like me who work on Intranets or App development as well as the freelancers. If you do know the code it does not matter what you use, whatever works best for the job.
Unfortunatley for consumers comissioning freelance work there is no official governing body to consult - maybe one day it will be regulated.
If you are creating a hobby site and only ever use WYSIWYG then so be it - I'd rather be able to look at your collection of Widgets on a website than not have it available at all.
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:33:04
FrontPage provides the basic structure for the website. You can have an entire layout completed within a minute by using their many built in templates.
It took me 30 seconds to create a 6 page website with a photo gallery and contact form. Every page has a header, left menu, and footer. The menus are automatically created for all sub pages, and all links work without me having to change a single thing.
If you compare that to how long it takes even a skilled person in DW, you'll see the major benefit of FP.
What about adding a hit counter? Only takes another couple seconds to select it from the list.
FrontPage is much easier and faster for websites that do not need to have valid code.
I'm beginning to do more and more XHTML designs lately in hopes to speed up loading times, so I do not often use FP anymore. However, I still believe it is a better WYSIWYG editor for both the newbs and the professionals. The main reason I stick to DW is because of the very easy to use code interface, with syntax highlighting and link updates as pages change locations.
quote:
If you are getting paid to create a site then you really have to know the code
- What for? I see nothing wrong with being a web designer who can tackle everything using the WYSIWYG mode in editors. Being able to find/replace code comes in handy, but I don't think you need to know how to build a table by hand, or how to code forms correctly. In the end, most clients care about how everything looks, not how you made it look the way it does.
The only reason I hand code XHTML websites, is because of the better chance of being able to have the page load quicker. If FP was able to handle XHTML, I wouldn't bother coding all of the tags manually.
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 12/5/2006 16:41:20 >
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Giomanach
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:48:41
In reply to BobbyD on the PHP front: PHP is not a Microsoft invention, nor will it ever be. Unless they own it, they won't support it. Where as Macromedia/Adobe will support ASP/ASP.net as it's a widely used language. End of that discussion really :)
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rubyaim
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 16:58:24
quote:
If FP was able to handle XHTML
I use this in FP - in code view right clicking and selecting 'Apply XML Formatting Rules' will close all tags and helps if you have been working in design view - beats closing them by hand.
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rubyaim
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 17:38:28
quote:
- It still codes design throughout the page, right?
Bobby, I'm sorry, am not sure what this means ...
Basically when I'm doing a XHTML page from scratch I make sure the doc type is set in code view and any style sheets are linked, then I go to design view and do whatever, then switch back to code view, right click and 'Apply XML Formatting Rules', then save it and run it through the W3 validator - rarely have to fix anything.
Apply XML Formatting takes care of closing tags, something that is very tedious to do by hand.
When in design view I tend to work with 'Reveal Tags' and the 'Quick Tag Selector' on as well - this can be handy, especailly if it is a CSS layout.
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dpf
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 19:04:35
we talk about this ad infinitum but.... irrespective of who or what writes the code behind the scenes..and irrespective of whether it is compliant or not - the public and most potential customers will judge it externally - by the elegance and appeal of the design ( according to thier tastes, of course) - so ultimately, design wins - not code.
I say that as a most inadequate designer.
Daniel Patrick
ps i was listening to peter green fleetwood mac last night - 'Oh Well"
'now when i talk to God I know he'll understand
he said stick by me and I'll be your guiding hand
but dont ask me what i think of you
I - just- might- not -tell -you - the -answer-that - you -want - me - to'
Oh Well
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 19:13:37
quote:
Bobby, I'm sorry, am not sure what this means ...
- The entire reason I code pages using XHTML is because of how quick the page loads. I don't care if a little validator says my code doesn't contain an error, I care about it being as quick as possible for the end user. Basically, with FP, by lack of support for XHTML, I'm getting at the fact that it doesn't really code the website with the above stuff in mind.
I never use FP to actually hand code a page anymore, but it is good to know about the Apply XML Formatting Rules in case I ever do go back to doing that. Is this available in FP 02?
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dpf
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 19:17:16
quote:
because it's cheaper. ..when it goes retail?
ps - how is married life old girl
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rubyaim
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/5/2006 19:29:27
quote:
- The entire reason I code pages using XHTML is because of the quickness that the page loads.
Yeah, me too.
quote:
I don't care if a little validator says my code doesn't contain an error, I care about it being as quick as possible for the end user.
Quick as possible is my main aim as well, especially for data entry, but I have to care about the validator (and accessibility) as I have a legal department who checks my sites - the fact they don't have a clue is beside the point, they like to see 'passed' 
quote:
Basically, with FP, by lack of support for XHTML, I'm getting at the fact that it doesn't really code the website with the above stuff in mind.
I've never found any issues with working in XHTML with FP, but it could be the way I work? I have the luxury of only having 'users', not customers and only maintain 26 different sites, so it's not like I have to churn out new designs constantly, and if I do I generally reuse elements / css from other sites I've done.
quote:
I never use FP to actually hand code a page anymore, but it is good to know about the Apply XML Formatting Rules in case I ever do go back to doing that. Is this available in FP 02?
I'm not sure if it's available in FP 02 Bobby, maybe someone who uses that could do a check?
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Tailslide
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/6/2006 2:46:38
quote:
ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas
quote:
If you are getting paid to create a site then you really have to know the code
- What for? I see nothing wrong with being a web designer who can tackle everything using the WYSIWYG mode in editors.
I don't believe that you can design a site purely in WYSIWYG mode that would be of an acceptable standard (at least for me).
As people have said - tools for tasks. If it's for fun then *shrug* I'm not going to judge that. If it's a "professional" site then it should be good (design, content, construction, usability, accessibility). Anything that makes that harder is worth avoiding.
If WYSIWYG editors contain elements such as XML database integration that make a designer's life easier then that would balance the annoyance of double checking the code it produces and would offset the cost of the software. If it made my life easier then I'd consider buying DW - but up to now I just haven't needed it for the stuff I've been doing (static sites, small shops, blogs, WP CMSs).
Don't get tied to the tool - if it's not doing the job then dump it and get something else. This is harder obviously if you've paid out £500 for it!! Knowing the code makes it easier to be independent of the software.
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/7/2006 0:24:28
quote:
I don't believe that you can design a site purely in WYSIWYG mode that would be of an acceptable standard (at least for me).
- When the final word comes down, it doesn't matter to the client if you or I think it is good enough, it matters if the end result is what they think is good enough. Don't get me wrong, I still provide lots of input for everything, but I don't make the decision if the website is going to be fully XHTML/css driven.
I try not to pitch a single plan for each website, but instead give my clients a few options. Some people would rather spend an extra $100 towards the design of the site, instead of trying to make it load faster. Some want both, and some would rather just have a fast loading website in general.
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Tailslide
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 12/7/2006 2:44:20
quote:
ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas
- When the final word comes down, it doesn't matter to the client if you or I think it is good enough, it matters if the end result is what they think is good enough.
No - it does matter to me.
Obviously the client must be happy otherwise I haven't done my job. But it also matters to me that I've done my best (within my own limitations) to produce a site that I'm happy to have my name on.
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ID_Clear
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 3/5/2008 21:44:39
Where should I begin? I am an instructional designer who develops training courses for companies. Training has moved online and I need to move with it. I need to learn how to build web modules for e-learning.
I'm willing to invest in training but don't know where to begin. Should I learn Expression or Dreamweaver? Should I take a class in Flash first? Are there any online courses that you would recommend I try?
Thanks!
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Tailslide
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 3/6/2008 3:32:12
Your best bet is to learn the code. Don't bother with a WYSIWYG like Expression or Dreamweaver to begin with. Download a freebie HTML editor like PSPad or Crimson Editor or Html-Kit and start with a good tutorial like:
http://www.htmldog.com/
http://www.cssbasics.com/
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/index.htm
Once you understand and can use the code properly then, if you really want to you can move onto a WYSIWYG and you'll be able to keep an eye on the code that it produces and correct it's failings.
Flash is very useful in it's place and good for things like short instructional videos but I would steer away from using it as your sole tool - it can be very inaccessible (although it's improving). If you look into Flash (which given your area of business - you will) then pay special emphasis to Accessibility as there's quite a lot of work going on with regards to Flash and accessibility.
I think the problem people find is when they go down one road and completely ignore all the other possibilities such as always (or possibly never) using Flash. I believe that to give yourself the best outcome you'd be best to spend some time learning the basics (HTML, CSS) and then move onto enhancing that framework with Flash - always bearing in mind accessibility (which is easier to do if you adhere to good coding standards as you go along).
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mar0364
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 3/6/2008 8:26:24
If your teaching people how to use software I would look at Adobe Captivate or Camtasia Studio they are both proven tools for the delivery of instructional material. Now my advice would be for you to have someone help you get a CMS site up and running and you can update it with your content. That way you can focus on your core business. There is plenty to learn with Captivate or Camtasia.
Regards!
Rich
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Expression vs Dreramweaver - 3/6/2008 15:10:52
quote:
I need to learn how to build web modules for e-learning.
- Depending on what specifically you are going to build, there are many ways to go. Are you trying to build a website that will allow you to sell training videos online? If so, you may want to look into a shopping cart system. If you do that, you won't have to know much about web design at all to create a fully functional website.
Have you already created your videos? What format are they in? How would someone view them online?
quote:
I'm willing to invest in training but don't know where to begin. Should I learn Expression or Dreamweaver?
- It really depends on the route you're trying to go. It doesn't sound like you are trying to be a web designer, so I wouldn't waste time getting into the code portion for building websites. As far as Expression vs Dreamweaver, I would give both a try, and go with the one you feel it easiest to use. I use Dreamweaver, however, I think that the flow/layout in Expression is much easier for a novice or someone who is already familiar with MS Office programs. Honestly, it really just comes down to which program will be easiest to use, while still being able to create a good website.
quote:
Should I take a class in Flash first? Are there any online courses that you would recommend I try?
- If you want to use flash, you will definitely need to take a class on it. Flash is like another language. I would start with a solid flash book, and then move onto online courses or tutorials. It doesn't sound like you want to be a flash developer though, so I think you may be wasting a lot of time on flash. At some point, it may simply be cheaper to pay someone to do minor flash work for you.
If you're wanting to use flash to create the online training tutorials, you can use something like Rich mentioned above, such as Adobe Captivate.
quote:
Now my advice would be for you to have someone help you get a CMS site up and running and you can update it with your content. That way you can focus on your core business.
- I completely agree! Leave the technical stuff of web design to the people who work in it all day long.
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Printable Version 
. A good table layout can be edited in anything. 
What I have done with FP is just refresh the page every time I make a major change. I'll save it, and then preview it, if it looks messed up then I undo the change and think about the problem. I don't even both looking at FP code anymore, it is just too messy. 
