RE: FP vs EW vs MP, ad nausium ... (Full Version)

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BobbyDouglas -> RE: FP vs EW vs MP, ad nausium ... (2/22/2007 1:18:41)

quote:

OK BD, how did your reply sneak in before mine? It wasn't there when I posted.

- lol, it sucks when two people take the time to write up a nice reply. It would be cool if there was something that says "User X is replying"

I guess it is called EW still... Microsoft Expression Web Designer was the first name, right? Or was there one before it?



websquad -> Microsoft Expression and SSI (2/22/2007 1:34:03)

Does Microsoft Expression Web support Server Side Includes? One of my sites has about 450 SHTML pages. If I change the footer in one of the include files, all 450 pages are changed.

With Microsoft Expression Web, can you change one include file, or must it change all 450 web pages and thus requires the uploading of all 450 pages ??




jaybee -> RE: Microsoft Expression and SSI (2/22/2007 6:22:33)

quote:

Does Microsoft Expression Web support Server Side Includes? One of my sites has about 450 SHTML pages. If I change the footer in one of the include files, all 450 pages are changed.
Yes

quote:

With Microsoft Expression Web, can you change one include file, or must it change all 450 web pages and thus requires the uploading of all 450 pages ??
Think FrontPage goes professional and you have EW. Includes work fine.

The only time you have to be a bit careful is if you're using PHP includes as EW isn't very friendly towards PHP at the moment and can, not always, just occasionally, add some crud on the front or back.



jaybee -> RE: Microsoft Expression and SSI (2/22/2007 6:25:27)

quote:

It would be cool if there was something that says "User X is replying"
See SMF forum. [:D]

quote:

Microsoft Expression Web Designer was the first name, right? Or was there one before it?
Well on the box it says Expression Web. For a while it just became Expression but it seems to have gone back again. Originally it was called Sparkle or something equally daft.



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 11:00:14)

Reading this thread it seems to me that I should stick to Frontpage for as long as I can:
I have 3 websites that work OK (even if they're kind of amateurish) and no plans for building new sites.

The only question left is this:
I never got to learn CSS which is rather impractical when/if I want to make changes to the main look. Therefore these questions (from an amateur... )
If I choose EW will it help me translating the code into CSS - without me having to learn CSS in detail?
And is it worth it at all? Or could I just as well stick with my good old tables and stuff?

Thanks!

Halina



jaybee -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:02:36)

quote:

If I choose EW will it help me translating the code into CSS - without me having to learn CSS in detail?
And is it worth it at all? Or could I just as well stick with my good old tables and stuff?


1. Yes to a certain extent. It's an idea to go through the tutorials though as otherwise you'll just start using tables for layout again. EW will stick in a few divs and you'll end up with a worse mess.

2. Worth it depends on your view and your site position. If your site is business and your Govt have Accessibility laws then it might be an idea to begin to work on it before you're forced to. If they're hobby sites then it's entirely down to you.

My only concern would be how long the browsers and hosts will support legacy FP sites. You should be safe for the next couple of years but after that, who knows.



Tailslide -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:09:58)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybeeYou should be safe for the next couple of years but after that, who knows.


That'd be one of my points too. All websites have lifespans - there's no point in redoing a website using old techniques which might possibly limit their lifespans. Getting to grips with CSS and ensuring you use good markup will make updating the site much much easier and will open up the possibility of the site being accessed from other interfaces than boring old browsers! (might not be an issue now... but in a couple of years it might well be).



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:24:20)

Aha! Thanks a lot to both of you for bringing these other aspects to my attention as well.
Especially since all 3 sites are business sites.

I'll start with a trial and then we'll see where it takes me...



jaybee -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:27:44)

Are you in the US?



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:29:54)

No, I'm in Denmark (that European Union) but some of my websites are mostly visited by people from the US



jaybee -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 12:31:58)

Nix that I see you're in Denmark. AFAIK the laws there at the moment only relate to Govt sites but if you have a Disability Discrimination Act it can be used to apply to web sites even though it doesn't specifically state them. In the US the ADA is being used to go after the Target chain.

The UK, Holland and Germany have tied their DDAs down to include sites, the rest of the EU can't be far behind.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 13:20:25)

quote:

I have 3 websites that work OK (even if they're kind of amateurish) and no plans for building new sites.

- There is no reason to upgrade to EW. You will lose many features, and pick up new ones that won't help.

There isn't a translator button that will change your FP created website into a nice CSS layout in EW. [&:]

Are building websites just something you do on the side? Or is this something you want to do full time? If it is a side job, then stick with FrontPage. If you plan to make some money out of it, you might want something like EW or DW, depending on what else you plan to do. EW is great if you want to get into ASP.net, DW is great if you want to get into PHP.

It all depends on how you use the tools, and what you plan to do later on.



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 13:28:04)

It's a side job - just to create a web presence for my own and my husband's work (music, coaching etc.).
As our business grows we could also ask a pro to make the sites for us, but then I like staying in control... [;)]

I am also pondering something entirely different:
Now that Wordpress gets better and better in so many ways, and also allows for a static homepage, and with all the plugins available I could maybe simply "transfer" our sites to Wordpress... How does that sound to you?

I appreciate all feedback very much...



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 13:46:02)

It doesn't sound like you should upgrade to EW or DW.

The transfer to Wordpress sounds good, but keep in mind it will need updating. If you do not update it, then someone can hack into it and mess with everything you have done.

How big are the websites we're talking about? Maybe a Wordpress would be overkill... There are javascript based content manager systems that allow you to update content without having to have any type of Wordpress software installed. It isn't as easy to use as a Wordpress or FP interface, but still an option.



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 13:58:06)

The biggest one is 100+ pages.
I have 4 Wordpress blogs already and updating isn't a problem.

The more we talk about it though the more I'm inclined to stay with FP for the time being and then see how the world looks like when/if that becomes a problem...

Thanks!






jaybee -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/28/2007 16:14:27)

It is possible to set your site up using css in FP, not as simple as EW but possible. If I were you and you have some free time, I'd start looking at css with a view to changing your site over. Initially set yourself up a template and do a test page that's hidden within your site to play with.

Do it without any of the FP specials, no themes, no forms, no shared borders (use includes) etc. When you've done one that you're happy with then try a few other pages in the layout.

That way, you're using a familiar tool but you're setting everything up ready for a switch to EW or anything else and futureproofing the site in your own time, rather than waiting for big bang day.

Despite what Bobby says, accessibility is becoming a very hot potato, the EU is different to the US and is pushing forward fast.

You could go WordPress as long as you follow their guidelines for semantic XHTML to keep it valid.

quote:

I have 4 Wordpress blogs already
!!!!!! What on earth do you put in them? I can't think of a thing to put in mine, I use it as a client demo.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/29/2007 1:03:28)

quote:

The biggest one is 100+ pages.

- To update anything in a 100 page website takes quite a bit of time. Sooner or later you will want to invest time into putting everything inside of a database.

Are you using FrontPage Themes? This makes updating websites much much easier, and means you do not have to rely on any sort of database.

EW dropped support for FP Themes (as well as all of the other web components), however, if your current site uses them, the FP Theme option is visible.

quote:

It is possible to set your site up using css in FP, not as simple as EW but possible.

- It is also not required by anything, right? It would be a waste of time to turn a site into a CSS based design, especially if it is over 100 pages. Much better to go straight to a database driven site like wordpress.

quote:

You could go WordPress as long as you follow their guidelines for semantic XHTML to keep it valid.

- Valid XHTML isn't required either, right?



jaybee -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/29/2007 3:34:37)

quote:

To update anything in a 100 page website takes quite a bit of time. Sooner or later you will want to invest time into putting everything inside of a database.
Why? Unless the site is very dynamic static pages are just as easy to maintain.

quote:

Are you using FrontPage Themes? This makes updating websites much much easier, and means you do not have to rely on any sort of database.
So do includes and you don't have to rely on a database or FP, they're totally portable

quote:

It is also not required by anything, right? It would be a waste of time to turn a site into a CSS based design, especially if it is over 100 pages. Much better to go straight to a database driven site like wordpress.
Assuming the site can be done in Wordpress. It's basically a blog with a few add-ins, not all sites can be shoehorned into it.

quote:

Valid XHTML isn't required either, right?

Wordpress in its native form with the addition of a decent template, renders valid XHTML code. I see little point in taking something that is clean, compliant and will pass accessibility requirements and then turning it into an invalid dog's dinner.



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/29/2007 8:18:12)

... I just sit here and watch and learn! and don't try to make any decision yet - I'm sure eventually I'll arrive at one. Meanwhile I so much appreciate you taking the time to discuss this!

As webdesign is not my main interest, my approach is very practical. I don't feel motivated to learn a lot new stuff - I like finding ready-made bits and pieces and then be able to use them directly or tweak them just a little so they work the way I want them too.
In this sense Wordpress has been a really nice experience for me. Not perfect maybe but good enough. And it's getting better and better all the time.
I'm not sure if I would be able to use Wordpress for the site, but it could be very interesting to play with it and see how it works out.

I have the impression that creating a CSS based FP site would be more demanding than going with Wordpress.
But then CSS is part of Wordpress too and it would give me more freedom to be able to understand it and use it properly. So playing with a small CSS site makes sense too...
The same goes for php by the way.
Having been a programmer back in '70s (!!!) I get the general idea of a programming language and have been able to get things done by guesing my way through the code kind of... that's probably not the ideal solution in the long run though. [;)]

I don't use any theme - have just made my own table-based template which I simply copy when I make a new page.

(By the way my 4 blogs: 1 marketing blog, 1 inspirational blog in Danish, 1 inspirational blog in English, 1 blog for coaching clients) [;)]. I enjoy writing and when I don't feel inspired I just don't blog)




BobbyDouglas -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (3/29/2007 20:41:34)

quote:

Why? Unless the site is very dynamic static pages are just as easy to maintain.

- Dynamic pages (content in a database) make updating the website much easier over time. Similar to the idea of using FP Themes. You can change the ENTIRE look of a website, with about 3 clicks.

quote:

I don't use any theme - have just made my own table-based template which I simply copy when I make a new page.

- That's too bad, FP Themes take very little time to update your overall website.

quote:

I have the impression that creating a CSS based FP site would be more demanding than going with Wordpress

- Think about how it will benefit you. You might find that it will be a complete waste of time. You don't need to have a CSS/XHTML valid website, if you simply use a CSS file, and then styles within the CSS throughout your site, it will be just as easy to update most of the visual elements of the site (links, colors, headings, etc). If your content was stored inside a database, then you would be able to update your overall design much easier.



halinagold -> RE: Keep Using FP or move to EW? (5/5/2007 5:40:10)

I've made a couple of interesting experiences with this, so want to share them:

After trying different avenues that didn't work well for me, this turned out to be the way that I find easiest and most enjoyable:


  • Reading a CSS tutorial (just so that I could understand the basic ideas)
  • Downloading a CSS template with a structure that is rather close to what I want in the end
  • Tweaking it to my needs from within EW (I downloaded a trial)


Having a template to start with made using EW seems rather straight forward - at least with regards to my present needs (and that's enough for me).

Coming from FP and Microsoft Office I like EW better than DW (downloaded a trial of that too) simply because the navigation etc. feels more familiar/intuitive/easy.

Now I understand that EW is more asp related and DW is more php related.
Since I don't "speak" any of it but do use (and will continue to use) php blogs and php forums I'm inclined to use php scripts rather than asp scripts.

So all in all I'd like to use EW with CSS templates and php scripts as needed.
Would that present any problems?

Thank you!

Halina

P.S. I did consider using Wordpress as CMS but somehow I feel both restricted and overwhelmed by it because I can't quite understand what exactly is going on there and I'm dependent on what they do and don't with it. I feel more free using EW for pages and then just using Wordpress for blogging.



halinagold -> RE: And the winner is: Dreamweaver (5/10/2007 3:55:58)

Latest news - for anyone who is in a similar situation/dilemma.
I took some time to explore this some more and realized that EW and PHP is NOT a good idea. So surrendered to give DW another try. And you know, it's not as difficult as I thought. On the contrary, I begin to like it, more and more so.

So, I'm playing now with CSS and Dreamweaver. It took me A LOT of time to create a style sheet and a template for my website, but now that the foundation is laid, building from there seems so easy.

[:D]



jaybee -> RE: And the winner is: Dreamweaver (5/10/2007 4:39:14)

quote:

EW and PHP is NOT a good idea
Tell me about it. In fact, that's an understatement. EW HATES PHP.

Well done you for persevering and getting to grips with CSS. You'll be glad you did in the long run and you went about it exactly the right way. Get a ready made template and play.



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