Quick, I need help with a decision (Full Version)

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shaw -> Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 10:57:26)

I am used to creating sites with tables. I'm not a CSS guru, but I do use it and I have a book called CSS 101 Essential Tips, Tricks and Hacks.

Can anyone tell me what CSS can't DO? I mean, i've heard about browser issues, but my goodness, we all know that issues arise with ALL web design tools.

I've reviewed MANY church web sites (as I am creating a site for a church) and MOST, if not all use tables. I'm confused.

I just want it to great and I do have accessibility in mind for creating this site. Is it possible to create an accessible site using tables? I've read the W3C standards and read that I could do this.

Here's a site I like:

www.worldchangers.org



jaybee -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 11:34:56)

Yes you can create an accessible site with tables but it's not recommended. You have to use

<table summary="This table contains"
<caption>a caption for the table
<th>This column contains....

as well as all the usual stuff. Now those are easy to do if it's a data table but for layout it can be near impossible.

css, especially in an external file makes your site easy to update as you only change the info in one place and the entire site changes but it takes a bit of learning if you're going to use it for layout. Styles are a doddle though.

The site you've quoted isn't accessible, not anywhere near. The code doesn't validate and there's no doctype.

When you start with css for layout I would recommend not trying to copy somebody else's layout. Initially it tends to be a compromise. "What can I get to work in css that I actually understand".

Later as you get more experienced you can force the layout to work the way you want. (tries to ignore the gales of laughter coming from the css gurus) [;)]

There are sites around with layouts you can get for free and I suggest you start with one of those if that's the route you want to go down.

www.cssplay.co.uk
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/one_html_markup_many_css_layouts.asp



Tailslide -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 11:35:30)

Is it possible to create an accessible website using tables? Well it's not recommended. If you absolutely must use tables for layout (they're fine for tabular data) then try not to nest them - use as few as possible.

CSS is a way of controlling the layout and presentation of your content. The idea is that all you have in the markup is the content surrounded by the semantic tags (such as "p" or "ul" or "h3" etc). No font tags, nothing else should go in these semantic structural tags. Then you can add the odd div tag to describe an area of the site (such as "footer" or "header" for example) but you should only use what you absolutely have to. For example you can usually make reference to an item such as a list without bothering to stick a div around it. Just give the list it's own id.

Now that you've just got your content and your semantic tags in place you can set up a load of rules in your external stylesheet to control how all of that is presented and laid out.

Quick accessibility checklist for you:

1. If possible use CSS to lay out the site not tables.
2. If you must use tables - use as few as possible - don't nest them or they'll be totally inaccessible.
3. Use semantic, valid code - this doesn't guarantee accessibility but it sure helps.
4. Always include alt attributes for images which serve the same purpose as the image if the image can't be seen. If it's non-informational image then just have a blank alt attribute (alt="") - never leave it off.
5. Always add labels in the markup for forms
6. Don't use popup windows unless you have to and always warn people if you do use them.
7. Don't use Accesskeys or Tabindexes
8. Always add skip links to pages to help people navigate.
9. Never use fixed font sizing - always stick to % or ems so that people can resize the text.
10. Allow for people resizing your text - make sure your site doesn't break!
11. Make sure your site still makes sense with CSS and images off (get Firefox developer toolbar so you can check)

That's just off the top of my head - probably fogot loads of things.



shaw -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 11:43:47)

Its funny you just said to not use Accesskeys or Sticky keys because I just wrote that down. I thought it was neat to use the Accesskeys. My mom had an accident and has limited use of her right hand. This surely hits close to home. I want to know why I can't use Accesskeys.

At least I have finally made up my mind to use CSS. It took me days, no weeks, to make this decision. Had to do reading on the two technques. I know if I go with tables, I can have a site up fairly quickly. But, this site is for a church and many will come to it and their salvation may depend on if they can read the content!

One last thing. I heard you can't create a search form for a CSS site. Is this true?



jaybee -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 11:47:38)

Accesskeys. The problem is that browsers and other assistive software use accesskeys and surprise! they all use different ones, so if you set accesskeys for your site, for example, you use H to go to your help page, the user with the browser that uses H for Home is going to get very slightly miffed when they end up in the wrong place.

People often get access keys confused. In your mother's case she needs to be able to navigate the site using tab keys. css menus are fine for that and will work quite happily without you having to specify anything additional in the code.

search forms you can get them to validate, and you can get the result page to validate but you can't use css to create the search itself, you need to use asp or php to store the results in a database, or use a cgi script.

The way most people get round it is to have a site map. As long as it's prominent on the page, people will go to that and choose where they want to jump to.

If you need the site up quickly then why not build it wiith tables then take your time re-doing it with css. That way there will be a site in place while you tear your hair out. [:D]



Tailslide -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 13:01:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shaw

One last thing. I heard you can't create a search form for a CSS site. Is this true?


I've got search forms on many of my sites and they're all CSS layouts.

CSS only influences the layout and presentation - nothing else.



shaw -> RE: Quick, I need help with a decision (11/1/2006 13:10:03)

Best said Jaybee. I think I will go with tables first as I see I may not have a smooooth experience with CSS. Since I don't know what to expect, because I haven't created a CSS site before, I will take your advice. I will re-do it in CSS because I am very interested in what its going to be like. In addition, the people who may very well be involved in making an update or two, DOES NOT KNOW HTML or any other code. So, I guess it is best to create a simple template in Dreamweaver with only content editing allowed. I predicted when asked to "help" this would turn into a full-fledged "me" project. I do have a CSS template I liked but it really wasn't I wanted in terms of design. I'll keep it for another project. Thanks!



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