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Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>largest/smallest is selected
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designerNOTdev
Posts: 35
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Ireland
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Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>larg... - 11/4/2006 15:47:49
ok - here we go again. think its time to expand that Expressions .exe I downloaded few weeks back and set my expectations higher than the old reliable FP.
For now however, its FP and a problem I have always workedaround has to be tackled - finally!
In summary: the effect on changing view>>text size>> largest/smallest in IE is having on one of my tables! I always restrict my text size by setting e.g. style="font-size: 13pt" which ensures whatever way a visitor chooses to display text, Im happy in the knowledge its the way I want it to be seen (as long as its IE they use). However, when I toggle between the two extremes of largest/smallest, often the size of a table and/or cell will drop or grow by a pixel or two, enough to drive me crazy.
I read in a post here that FP by default leaves sizes without a measurement e.g. px, cm, em so I went through my code and added .px to everything but it made no diff.
In this particular instance, take a look at my 18px high dark grey band running across the bottom. If you set view>text>largest note how my grey bar grows in depth by a couple of pixels (and vice versa if you view>smallest). Im not experienced enought to troubleshoot this one alone - thus help so graciously wanted here por favour! I know I could start from scratch and reapproach my design in a differnt way but I know there has to be a solution to this old chestnut of a problem for me 
Thanks folks. Sample is here: http://www.jimdoolan.com/sample%20of%20problem.htm
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designerNOTdev
Posts: 35
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Ireland
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RE: Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>... - 11/5/2006 6:04:14
Thx for the response Tailside but Im afraid I disagree. I see many great sites out there where the designers have ''pretty much'' locked all aspects of resising (well I guess I can only speak from experince of IE and Netscape). If someone is poor sighted I can live with the fact they cant resize my design in the same way they cant resize the magazine on their coffee table.
Just a couple of Examples of some sites that keep user experience to a similar constraint are
http://www.kekoa.com.au/
http://www.rustboy.com/rustweb.htm
Again its obvious Im still relative new to the complexities of balancing desing with code and I I dont want to go off on a tangent on the wrongs and rights of restricting visitors options, but the fact is there are tons of sites out there where In my view the deigner has doen a great job ensuring wysiwyg is the same of all and all I wanna do is replicate this skill. Is FP my problem here? If I was using another autohiring app would I still have this issue? And more importantly is there anything I can do to my current design to stop the table from growing each time font size is changed?
By the way Tailslide, I take your point on the 'best viewed at' line and will be removing thx.
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designerNOTdev
Posts: 35
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Ireland
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RE: Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>... - 11/5/2006 15:26:59
thx for everyone's feedback. Much appreciate it.
I don't understand CAZ how CSS and/or DOCTYPE can influence number of people reaching the site?
I'm afraid Im gonna be a stick in the mud and keep to goal of prescriptive display size. One thing is for sure also, the client will not be in danger of losing sales because someone cant increase text size beyond an std 12pt - thats an absurd assumption.
These pieces sell for large sums of money and folks don't buy them on a whim or get swayed over font sizes.
Again, thx all for the constructive feedback - I do in fact take it all on board.
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d a v e
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From: England (but live in Finland now)
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RE: Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>... - 11/5/2006 16:26:20
the client will not be in danger of losing sales because someone cant increase text size beyond an std 12pt - thats an absurd assumption.
if someone with poorer than average eyesight wants to buy that kind of thing and visits your site and they can't read the text very well/comfortably (say a significant number of people over 55, and some under that age too - diabetics, etc) then they will just click to another search/site. to think that they will stay on your site if they don't find what they want or can't resize the text to a comfortable size is absurd.
incidentally in users of IE6 and before can resize the text
IE6
tools > internet options > general tab > accessibility 'ignore font sizes specified on web pages
which i'm sure they know about if they continually have a problem of text being 'locked' and of course opera and firefox users (a growing and significant percentage) can resize text at will
if you had a (physical) shop and because say you didn't have a small ramp for wheelchair users up the front step and maybe that lost you 2% of customers would that make a difference to your client ? most business people i know wouldn't want ANY loss of potential customers, and the cost of making a website accessible is a heck of a lot smaller than having to start building steps, etc. at least with reputable designers ;) it should be planned in from the beginning, and if you weren't aware of it and then find out you can easily do it then why not do it?
the point of the web is that it is accessible to all: it's a fluid thing not a fixed document like in the world of print, if you're too lazy to do something about it then that's your loss and your client's.
:)
if a site 'doesn't work' for you (i.e. it's too slow, can't find what you're looking for, too hard to read the text) what do you do? that's right: you click away, quickly
and while i'm at it designing only for 1024 x 768 and above can be a mistake too: one of the top things users hate is having to constantly scroll sideways, and there are still many people on 800x600 even if the number is falling AND just because they may have a monitor capable of displaying over 2000px wide they haven't necessarily got their browser maximised or maybe they're using the bookmarks panel on the left
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David Prescott
Gekko web design
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womble
Posts: 5721
Joined: 3/14/2005
From: Living on the edge
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RE: Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>... - 11/5/2006 16:29:59
Using CSS makes it far easier to make site wide changes which will make it easier for you to fix problems, is I think probably what Caz meant. Without a Doctype you throw browsers into quirks mode, and the browser makes it's best guess at which flavour of html you're using and how it should render the site, with the result that the resulting page may not be what you intended.
quote:
ORIGINAL: designerNOTdev
One thing is for sure also, the client will not be in danger of losing sales because someone cant increase text size beyond an std 12pt - thats an absurd assumption.
These pieces sell for large sums of money and folks don't buy them on a whim or get swayed over font sizes.
On that count I think maybe you're wrong. If they can't read the text, they're liable to go elsewhere. Many disabled people shop primarily on the internet, and if a site isn't accessible, they'll go elsewhere.
I am infact one of those "poor sighted" people you talk about. My browser's set up so that I can easily read websites, which means I've altered my screen resolution and default font size to my liking.
Only this afternoon I was shopping online, not for anything of great value, but the website I had been considering buying from had the product descriptions in such a small and unreadable font that I doubt that even people with normal vision would be able to read it easily. I increased the font size again so that it was readable, and the page totally broke, with text overlapping a dark background area so that it was totally unreadable, even at at font size I could read easily. Result? They lost my custom and I went elsewhere.
I've used the internet for many years, both with normal vison, and impaired vision, and though my vision isn't as bad these days as it was a couple of years ago, the number of sites that "break" on my default settings is very high. As a consumer I get well and truly p****ed off every day at the attitude of businesses, both "bricks and mortar" and online. When something can be easily fixed at zero/little cost, that's not just absurd, but pure laziness - and that's me talking as a consumer, not a web designer.
If you don't think the business benefit's worth it, you might want to take a look at this thread which mentions a book on accessibility which gives examples of the business benefits of accessible web sites...
quote:
quote:
At a recent conference to launch the UK PAS78, there was a very illuminating presentation by David Rhys Wilton, Internet Marketing Manager at Legal and General, a large UK financial services company. Mr Wilton explained that Legal and General were concerned about their exposure to litigation under disability discrimination laws, and rewrote their customer sites to be more accessible. As a side effect they noticed the following benefits:
- a 30% increase in natural search engine traffic
- a “significant improvement in Google rankings “for all target keywords”
- a 75 percent reduction in time for pages to load
- browser-compatibility (not a single complaint since)
- accessible to mobile devices
- time to manage content “reduced from average of five days to 0.5 days per job”
- savings of £200,000 annual on site maintenance
- a 95 percent increase in visitors getting a life insurance quote
- a 90 percent increase in in life insurance sales online
- a 100 percent investment in less than 12 months
You might also want to take a look at this site where you can find a simulation of how someone with very restricted vision sees web pages. It's quite illuminating.
Yes, I'm a web designer so I know more about accessibility than the average "poor sighted" person, but as a consumer I get sick of the attitude of people who just "can't be bothered".
I work with people who have severe visual problems, and I see the results of them struggling to do everyday things that most people take for granted. A partially sighted friend of mine gave me a tip for demonstrating to people what it's like trying to operate in the world with restricted vision - find a piece of tracing paper or something like that and hold it infront of your face - yes, you can see through it, but things are blurred and not easy to make out. Now try viewing some of your favourite websites like that.
Unfortunately for you, you've caught me on a bad day when I really haven't got the patience to put things nicely.
To quote Caz:
quote:
What you have now is a page that can be resized if necessary and has only a small problem to be fixed by you in order for it not to fall apart at different res or text sizes - lots of new designers would give their right arm to achieve what you have by accident.
Absurd assumption? No. Lazy designer who can't be bothered to fix a small problem and admit that he might possibly be wrong in trying to inflict his preferences on the rest of the world.
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~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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d a v e
Posts: 4194
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: England (but live in Finland now)
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RE: Table size grows/shrinks when view>text size>... - 11/6/2006 10:45:53
it's ok if you don't know everything but you should know the basics - like any work person: i might not expect my car mechanic to tune my engine to racing spec but i would expect him to be able to advise me on better shock absorbers, say, and fit them.
i think it's ok to be hard (but fair;) because you are doing this as a business, even as a newbie, but that means that you should want to learn and you should make time to learn it however hard it is to find that time because you should try to bring the same level of professioanlism (at least in attitude) as i assume you would do if this was a print job ;)
this is a good place to learn and there are many people who know a lot more than you (or me) who are more than willing to help.
to me being a web designer is more about just making a page that most can see *and* it accounts for less than 20% of my earnings! i may not get it right everytime but i try my best and i'm willing to learn what i don't know.
anyway it's good that you enjoy good healthy conversation - maybe we can nudge you along in the right direction ;) good luck!
_____________________________
David Prescott
Gekko web design
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Printable Version 
Sorry - that's completely the wrong approach. 
