Fund raising site for charity and participants (Full Version)

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frnet -> Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 9:01:39)

Before you review my site, please know:

It is not a con site. I've contacted 6 charities and so far I've received a reply from Cancer Research UK only. There is some legal stuff involved that needs sorting before a charity can become associated. That goes at least for a major one, like Cancer Research UK. Hopefully, they will get involved eventually.

Also, if you want to say “ I don't know you and I am not giving you any money”, just think for a minute. Do you know of anyone else who gave away more than 50% of their yearly income? I am not a millionaire and I intend to start a much bigger and more sophisticated project after this one.

The site is: www.raiseandshareamillion.com

So, please tell me:

What do you think of the idea?

How do you like the design?

What would you improve?

If you want to suggest a charity I should get in touch with, feel free to tell me. The project isn't restricted to UK only. Any country where PayPal can be used is welcome to take part.



jaybee -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 9:28:55)

quote:

What do you think of the idea?
Until you get the Charities on board with full endorsements and a facility for people to check that it is valid, it's not going to fly. You can tell people till you're blue in the face that it's not a con but then so do the conmen. People don't know you from Adam, why should they trust you with their cash?



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 11:25:18)

You're right, I'm afraid. I only hope it doesn't work like a magic circle. People won't take part because there are no charities involved yet, and charities won't get associated until enough people take part. That is why I am asking people to suggest a charity I could contact.



womble -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 12:27:20)

Well I could see anything glaringly obvious technically, although from an accessibility point of view you have some problems - most of the pages don't linearize very well.

More importantly, as far as the idea's concerned, there are a number of significant problems.

You're selling the idea as "get involved and raise money for worthy causes" when actually only 25% goes to charities. 25% goes to some of those who've joined, and presumably the other 50% to you? IMHO the donating to good causes angle is overplayed when only 25% goes to charity. Fair enough, run something that gives something back to participants, but 25% to charity - it may not be a con, but it's damned near to misleading.

Who are you? Where are you based? I can see few people wanting to get involved with something when there are no contact details and no idea of who's behind it.

Participants donate an amount - some of that goes to charity and some to a prize fund to be shared between 'winning' participants?

This from the DCMS website...
quote:

There is no legal definition of a lottery although it is generally held to be a distribution of prizes by lot or chance where entry is secured by the payment of a stake.

The general rule is that lotteries cannot be run for private or commercial gain.


What you're proposing sounds an awful lot like a lottery to me. Are you in the UK? There are very strict rules on running lotteries and such like - believe me, as the former treasurer for a voluntary organisation who ran occasional raffles and such like, which were covered by the Lotteries and Amusements Act, and therefore required me to get a Lottery Licence on behalf of the organisation and maintain all the paperwork - it can be a minefield. Do you have a lotteries licence? I suggest that you take a look at this page, and this one.

You need to check these out very carefully. Personally I wouldn't have published the charity's reply in full complete with email address etc. either. I'm sure they'll be very pleased when they start getting shed loads of spam, and I can't say that I can see charities falling over themselves to get involved.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 13:17:46)

Finally a forum with reactions to the point. Yes, I am UK based and I've thought of the issue, but couldn't find anything on the topic except for guidelines on how to declare taxes and pay charities http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/CHARITIES/faq_donors.htm. Thank you for your advice and the links. I'll read it all tonight.
I have also removed the e-mail details from the reply now. And the reason there is no e-mail contact on the site is exactly the same as the reason you suggested. SPAM mail. Anyone who wants to get in touch with me can use the feedback forms on my site.
Anyone interested in knowing who I am can use whois to find out, because again, I don't like spam any more than you do.



caz -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 13:17:55)

I too would be wary of participating in this until you provide more information about the operation of the scheme and yourself - the lack of an "About" page is glaring. The FAQ's provide some information but not enough and you might like to run a spellchecker over the pages eg.
quote:

who is allegeable
. I take it that you mean eligible?

I looked at the successor to the Million Dollar Homepage and came to the conclusion that the owner had just got greedy, despite sharing a proportion of the profits with a randomly chosen participant. As CancerUK replied, any participating charities would need a lot more information from you to ensure that their reputations remain intact.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 14:11:36)

In reply to everyone:

I've had the site reviewed in IE 6, 7; Firefox 1.5, 2, Opera 9.02 under different resolutions, but didn't find any problems with aligning. Please make a screen snapshot and send it to me, so I can fix it.


I've read it now and I don't see how my project has anything to do with a lottery. I am sure, it is obvious to anybody that I want to make some money out of it as well. Actually, I am doing this for me, but instead of being greedy and laugh into everyone's face, I want to share the success, should it become one, with people who made it possible. Everyone will have a chance to upload their picture or company logo into my Hall Of Fame, and some will receive a share.
You know, when I first started considering this project I was going to make it 49:51 share in favour of charities. Unfortunately, that is not appealing enough to make anybody even think about donating. That is why I've decided to let participants benefit as well. And, to avoid any future trouble in connection with “who will get the money”, I've made up rules that make it clear.

In other words: Unlike others who would just rip you off in the name of whatever, I am being honest with you and I shall also share the success. Not by giving away titbits, but by giving away more than 50%! If that is a lottery, than please advise me on how to do it so it ceases to be one, because I am determined to share it no matter what.

The fact I want to make money too, seems to be very disturbing to some people. I can't understand that. Everyone seems to notice that, and no one seems to care what amount of money I intend to give away.



womble -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 14:30:46)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frnet

The fact I want to make money too, seems to be very disturbing to some people. I can't understand that.

I don't have a problem with that - after all most people are on the web to try and make money in some form or another. What I do have a problem with is dressing it up so that it looks like the main aim of the game is the charitable side. You talk about "raising" money and "donators" - terms that suggest that the whole idea behind it is charitable when it's not - only 25% of it is.

quote:

I've read it now and I don't see how my project has anything to do with a lottery.

The DCMS site says:
quote:

There is no legal definition of a lottery although it is generally held to be a distribution of prizes by lot or chance where entry is secured by the payment of a stake.

Okay, so participants enter the "project" by donating (a stake?). For that they get a chance to win a share of whatever's made (a prize?). I may be wrong, but to me that sounds an awful lot like a lottery. If I were you, for my own peace of mind that I wasn't going to get clobbered for not following the legislation, I'd contact the DCMS for guidance.

You asked for views on the idea, and that's what you got. Sorry if you don't like that, but around here if you ask for people's views you tend to get a straight answer.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 16:04:47)

No, I didn't want to make it sound like I don't like what you are saying. I am working on the “about” page right now. But nowhere on the site I am saying that the main goal is to raise money for charity. I am going to make it clear in the “About” page. The reviews I've gotten from here are the most constructive and to the point of all the forums I have submitted it to for review.
First thing tomorrow I am going to to find out the legal state of things.



Donkey -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 18:32:54)

Actually 25% to the charity is good compared with what they get from some of the other collecting methods i.e. those professionals shaking the tin outside the local supermarket they take a percentage then pass the proceeds on to an area manager who takes a percentage the the regional manager then the firm operating the scam and finally the charity gets about 10%. Also the charity raffle tickets you see passed round in factories and pubs "in aid of the new scanner for the hospital" If you ever read the small print on the back they pledge to give the charity at least 5% of any profit they make - with their expenses and commissions to take into account it's a fair bet they don't pass much on. Then there are the despicable people who phone you at work and try to persuade you that several months ago you promised to pay for a worthless advert in the police year book in aid of some ostensibly worthwhile cause - they are just con merchants.

So 25% is good, but as others have pointed out you are organising a de facto lottery and you should be licensed under the gaming and lottery regulations. You are also leaving yourself open to prosecution for fraud as you are mentioning charities for which you have no legal right to act as a collecting agent. You should consult with a lawyer and an accountant before proceeding and you should also make sure you are adequately covered by insurance for all eventualities including being sued by charities and members of the public.

As a final point I must ask why do we (the public) need yet another "scam-like" opportunity for someone to take our money for charity. If we want to give there are many ways we can do it already by far the easiest is to give it directly to the charity concerned then they get the full amount or even more if you are a tax payer and you use the gift aid option.

Also morally there is something slightly worrying about setting up a business to make money out of charitable contributions we already have loads of those in this country they are called churches.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 20:32:45)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Donkey

As a final point I must ask why do we (the public) need yet another "scam-like" opportunity for someone to take our money for charity. If we want to give there are many ways we can do it already by far the easiest is to give it directly to the charity concerned then they get the full amount or even more if you are a tax payer and you use the gift aid option.

Also morally there is something slightly worrying about setting up a business to make money out of charitable contributions we already have loads of those in this country they are called churches.

Because:
1; It is not a scam

2; You can promote your business or your self in the Hall Of Fame even if you donate 50p (see milliondollarhomepage.com for comparison)

3; You could end up getting back more than you've donated. If not, you'll know that 25% of your money went to charities as Gift Aid

As for the moral, just imagine: Some people are wearing clothes for living or do nothing at all and get paid millions of pounds a year. Even you are paying a part of their salary by watching advertisements they star in, or buying clothes they promote or by reading magazines with their pictures in them. Next thing you know, they take drugs in public, make “private” porn movies and do a lot of other disgraceful stuff. But later, when you see them on TV cuddling a chiwawa and giving out thousands to charities pretending they care about anything, they are instantly forgiven and no one would dare to call their behaviour fraudulent or scam. After all, they care, don't they?
And so you feel comfortable with the fact that they seduce your children and friends to do what they do, and that the money they use for it comes partially out of your pocket and not even 0.001% of it goes to a good cause. Doesn't that worry you?

Now, I am no spoiled rich kid and I can assure you I don't want to spend money I could possibly earn running this project on drugs or other activities which are too rude to mention. This was a honest attempt to make a little bit of a difference, and not only for me. Why would any member of the public want to go and sue me for that? Now I am too scared of possible prosecution to carry on. In the morning I will go to consult authorities and see where it goes.

By the way, I didn't set up a business to make money out of charitable contributions. I want to make money and if I will I want to share it. Charities seem to me a very appropriate medium to share money with. Who would you share with?



Nicole -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/11/2006 22:59:53)

Mark,

Welcome to Outfront. I'm glad you realise you're getting honest critiques on your website and business proposal as others who have come here with business ideas recently have refused point blank to listen to our comments. It is a natural reaction to jump in and defend ones own idea against the probing kinds of questions you've received thus far, I'm glad you have listened to some of them at least.

Answer me something though. You say you've been on other forums and haven't received the quality feedback that you're receiving here. Was that feedback that you received on other forums just telling you it wouldn't work and leaving it at that, or were they just saying great idea and leaving it at that?

My guess is the former, so therefore I'd like to pose you this question. How many people tellling you either it smells of a scam, or that the charity's percentage isn't enough will it take to have you convinced that your idea isn't going to be believed?

Even though you may be welll intentioned, the point is that we jumped to that conclusion very early on, why do you think that is?

I believe it is because we believe that there are already many avenues available for charities to fundraise, given the amount of internet fraud and other scams, we, like any other internet surfer were skeptical.

Given that I believe you're about to enter into an area of business where it would seem a lot of your competitors are possibly less than trustworthy, you will therefore struggle to convince anybody that you are not like them, especially through a medium like the internet where charities can't physically meet you and gain trust in you.

In a way you even admit this by the way your opening page is worded. I didn't enter any further into your site because i'd read enough on the opening page more about why peoople should trust you and what your not. Alarm bells would start to ring pretty early on for any potential charity reading your site. Anyone who has to actually write this kind of stuff is admitting that they realise some, if not many people won't trust them.

It starts with your domain name, I'd change it to something totally different, with no mention of waht the site is about, and I'd try to get a .org instead of a .com.

I wouldn't make any mention of money or percentages at all, I'd make it so the visitor didn't need to read too much on the first page to get an idea of what the site was about. I would word things as briefly as possible and give more clues in other ways, but obviously not making them tacky. I would use very, very ambient colour schemes, blues and greens and try and give your visitor that initial first impression of trust both in what you write and also in how professional your site looks at first glance.

I would write only good things and not anything that is obviousl looking for people to trust you, I would also register the business and put your business number somewhere possibly in the banner.




Donkey -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/12/2006 6:16:45)

You misunderstand my point, I am even uncomfortable with charitable contributions from the national lottery. I buy a ticket each week, but not as a method of contributing to charity. I don't think the motives are compatible.

quote:

1; It is not a scam
To quote the famous song "if it quacks like a duck, and it walks like a duck and there's duck doo on your pick up truck you can bet your bottom buck it ain't no armadillo"

quote:

Now, I am no spoiled rich kid and I can assure you I don't want to spend money I could possibly earn running this project on drugs or other activities which are too rude to mention.
I don't think anyone questions what you spend your money on that's entirely up to you - wine women and song is OK by me.

You just need to check out that what you are trying to do is legal and make sure that if it is not a scam then it doesn't look like a scam.



jaybee -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/12/2006 6:55:30)

Nicole is right, your entire front page comes across as an apology almost. You read that and immediately wonder why you're so keen to explain it all that way.

You have a major problem convincing people of your voracity as there are so many cons going around, not just on the internet either.

If that is going to fly I think your need to market it differently, by all means say that there's a prize of 25% for a lucky winner and 25% will go to charity, maybe even a charity of the Winner's choice, that way you don't have to get specific charities on board. Your problem is to find the hook that'll get people to donate in the first place and I don't think charity is going to be it.

You should know by now that we're all charitied out in the UK. There are so many and some, like Children in Need and Red Nose Day are very good at extracting huge sums of money from everyone.

I think you need a different hook.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/12/2006 7:39:09)

The site was never meant to even remotely look like a lottery. I wanted to raise money for myself in the first place. I am not the first neither the only one to try. One other bloke I know about, was even on the news with it at least two times and he doesn't offer to share the money with anyone else.

It would seem that if I didn't want to share with anybody, the project would be legally OK. But where is the moral in that? It isn't right. Of course, the fact I want to share should encourage people to donate, which means a larger amount can be raised and more people and charities could benefit.

So, in my defence I need to say there is nothing morally wrong with what I want to achieve and how I was going to go about it. The law that suggests my project was a lottery was certainly made for protection against those with fraudulent intentions and rip-off's. I have contacted a lawyer now and disabled the “DONATE” button for the time being.

I can see why some people think it is a scam. Ever since some paranoid person came up with the phrase “It's too good to be true”, no one would believe anything that could be good.

Now, the index page wasn't always so full of info. I created the FAQs area for that, but look at this:
It should explain why there is so much info on the index page. Because of the way I talk, some people feel I was ungrateful (read post by blackhawkpowers).
http://www.webmaster-talk.com/website-review-and-suggestions/68462-honestly-what-do-you-think.html

The reason I said the reviews in this forum are the best, is because you have actually read what it says on the web site. In other forums I've had to deal with reactions like: “I didn't read the rules, but my logic says......”. This was a reaction in regard to the system of sharing the money.


Finally, if I ever sounded ungrateful, please forgive me. English isn't my first language but I am trying hard.



frnet -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/12/2006 7:44:05)

Again, I must say, the index page was about something different and it certainly didn't sound like an apology. I listened to too many people and kept fixing it until it was broken ;)



Nicole -> RE: Fund raising site for charity and participants (12/12/2006 8:31:57)

Mark,

Don't worry that English isn't your first language, it's not important in the context of this forum, but I'm afraid it's VERY important if you are living in an English speaking country and are planning on attracting business in these countries also. You're in the UK right?

I don't know why you sent me to look at that other forum? Some comments were similar to here but overall it seemed to me like people there just responding to boost their number of posts.

I don't know that your business idea is good because i still haven't read past your first page. In my opinion you have to write that content in a more positive way without going into much detail and apologising that others in this line of work are scammers.

Put it this way - many of us here strive to create standards compliant and accessible websites, we say so on our websites, but we don't go into the reasons why and we certainly don't criticise those who don't design using these standards, and we most certainly don't apologise for the apalling reputation those who don't design using standards create for the rest of us. We may, further into our site, mention why we design to standards though.

I don't think it's an English language problem on your opening page though, I just think you're focussing on defending yourself too much, which in turn gives the impression to viewers that something has to be defended, i.e. why does this guy have to defend himself so much? We all know it's because of the scammers, but even just hearing someone say "please believe me" begs the question "why would he be asking us to believe him if he seems so hung up on defending the business he's in"?

Don't make any apologies in what you write on your opening page. make it short and to the point, portray an air of confidence if you can but don't be over-confident, centre your design on the screen and take out anything to do with money, percentages, blinking "amounts so far" and just try and get across to your intended viewer what you wish to do for them, why you would like to help them and most certainly don't make any mention that you give 25% or whatever whereas somebody else may not be as generous as you.

Personally though Mark, I think you may be going about this the wrong way. If you are really looking to raise money ffor charity, start your business away from the internet and build some trust by going door-to-door and showing them your face and talking to real people. Over time, once you have a reasonable number of charities on board, then open it up a bit more, and in the end, then do the internet thing.

People just don't trust online charity kind of things, sorry but they don't. It's a bit like asking people to trust banks or phone companies.




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