I have been reviewing the Dreamweaver Ultra Dev 4 and it's database capabilities, etc and I am starting to wonder it Frontpage is the right program for managing large sites or heavy database driven sites.

My thoughts are primarily focused on the DRW and on the fact that FrontPage does so much to the code that it is usually not very clean.

Has anyone got experience with Dreamweaver Ultra Dev 4? Is it worth me taking a look at and learning?

Your thoughts would be appreciated!

Unfortunately I cant really afoord to buy a copy but I know I will soon. Althought Frontpage is a great program.

I dont think people are voiceing their opinion because they dont have a valid argument.

lwpunk

It seems that when you get into professional web developers they either, hand code, use Adobe GoLive, or use DreamWeaver.

Frontpage seems great for individuals, small to medium businesses, intranets, IS departments, etc. but I do not see it used much in professional webs shops.

Is there a reason? I am just trying to figure it out. I have always used FP but as I learn I wonder if it is worth me knowing something that appears to be more robust.

Thanks agian,

Also keep in mind that most users aren't using databases, or even ASP for that matter. So, these other products are more than what's necessary to do the job ("squashing a fly with a hammer").

One last note as to why people don't voice too many opinions on the subject: This is, after all, an FP help forum. Do you think there'd be much FP discussion on a DreamWeaver site?

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Melissa
Melissa's Web

Whew - that was long-winded even for me - [grin]

[This message has been edited by TimC (edited 08-24-2001).]

First of all, I'm a user of Frontpage 2000 (and its database features) who made the transition to Ultradev a few months ago, so I guess that I can give you an objetive oppinion.

I think FP 2000 is a terrific program, as well as Ultradev, but each of these programs are aimed to different type of users.

I don't make distintions between small business or corporate sites, or between large companies or small ones, because a web site's size or structure is not always related to the company behind.

Fontpage is excellent for someone who wants to get the job done with the least delay and without having to become an expert in programming or other skills that fall out of his field.
I think that for 95% of the potential users of a web design program, FP is just great.

Maybe it could be a little bit limited for a high end user, specially when it comes to database features and interactive sites.
But this is because FP offers a pre-built solution for non-programmers, so it's no wonder that this feature is somewhat limited (It's still terrific though in my oppinion).
Even though I know Ultradev 4 pretty well, I still have Frontpage in high regard.
It is the easiest and sompliest, yet powerfull web design tool I've ever used.

It has some drawbacks though:
-You need a web server that supports both ASP and FP extensions, and those servers tend to be way more expensive than others that only offer ASP (or any other server side language).
-Besides, you only have one option: ASP. You can't use JSP or Coldfusion, for example.

On the other hand, Ultradev is way more flexible and complete:
-You can choose between three different languages: ASP, JSP and Coldfusion.
-You can use almost any kind of database.
-the code generated is more "customizable" is you know how to code.
-It works in all kinds of servers. No extentions required.
-It's more extensible. You can download extentions built by independent programmers that add more functionality to the product.
-It lets you design the look of your interactive pages exactly the way you want. For example, you can display the database records in columns instead of rows. You are not limited by a database results region. You can drag and drop each field wherever you want.

It's drawbacks:
-It's much more difficult to get used to.
-It's not very intuitive at the beggining, specially if you are FP user.
-You have to set up the dns connections, and other configurations before starting with your site. FP does it automaticaly.
-if you don't have a database, ultradev doesn't build it for you (FP can build a simple database instantly from a form).

In sume, I use Ultradev because with it, I'm not limited to expensive hosting services that charge you a fortune just to use FP extensions and ASP, and because it offers more flexibility once you get used to it.
Besides, I started learning Coldfusion (which is the easiest server side language to learn, specially for a non-programmer like me, and Ultradev supports this language).

But I still keep Fontpage, and I use it when I need to get something done quickly and easily.

Excuse me for my bad english :-)
I hope this helps...

Good luck,
LUIS

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Luis Miguel Gonzalez
Buenos Aires, Argentina
luismg@gmx.net

First of all, I'm a user of Frontpage 2000 (and its database features) who made the transition to Ultradev a few months ago, so I guess that I can give you an objetive opinion.

I think FP 2000 is a terrific program, as well as Ultradev, but each of these programs are aimed to different type of users.

I don't make distinctions between small business or corporate sites, or between large companies or small ones, because a web site's size or structure is not always related to the company behind.

Frontpage is excellent for someone who wants to get the job done with the least delay and without having to become an expert in programming or other skills that fall out of his field.
I think that for 95% of the potential users of a web design program, FP is just great.

Maybe it could be a little bit limited for a high end user, specially when it comes to database features and interactive sites.
But this is because FP offers a pre-built solution for non-programmers, so it's no wonder that this feature is somewhat limited (It's still terrific though in my opinion).
Even though I know Ultradev 4 pretty well, I still have Frontpage in high regard.
It is the easiest and simplest, yet powerful web design tool I've ever used.

It has some drawbacks though:
-You need a web server that supports both ASP and FP extensions, and those servers tend to be way more expensive than others that only offer ASP (or any other server side language).
-Besides, you only have one option: ASP. You can't use JSP or Coldfusion, for example.

On the other hand, Ultradev is way more flexible and complete:
-You can choose between three different languages: ASP, JSP and Coldfusion.
-You can use almost any kind of database.
-the code generated is more "customizable" is you know how to code.
-It works in all kinds of servers. No extensions required.
-It's more extensible. You can download extensions built by independent programmers that add more functionality to the product.
-It lets you design the look of your interactive pages exactly the way you want. For example, you can display the database records in columns instead of rows. You are not limited by a database results region. You can drag and drop each field wherever you want.

It's drawbacks:
-It's much more difficult to get used to.
-It's not very intuitive at the beginning, specially if you are FP user.
-You have to set up the DNS connections, and other configurations before starting with your site. FP does it automatically.
-if you don't have a database, ultradev doesn't build it for you (FP can build a simple database instantly from a form).

In sume, I use Ultradev because with it, I'm not limited to expensive hosting services that charge you a fortune just to use FP extensions and ASP, and because it offers more flexibility once you get used to it.
Besides, I started learning Coldfusion (which is the easiest server side language to learn, specially for a non-programmer like me, and Ultradev supports this language).

But I still keep Fontpage, and I use it when I need to get something done quickly and easily.

Excuse me for my bad english :-)
I hope this helps...

Good luck,
LUIS

------------------
Luis Miguel Gonzalez
Buenos Aires, Argentina
luismg@gmx.net

For form creation and when those pages have to be just so! it's Dreamweaver.

When it absolutly positively has to be done tomorrow no matter what: Frontpage

Any one care to differ

I am still finishing up the first site that I will have completed from the ground up with UltraDev and here are my thoughts on the subject if anyone wonders as did I.

First both are great programs. Frontpage seems very easy because it functions like any other Microsoft program. Have you used word? Then yes you know how to use Frontpage.

When I first got over the shock of the $'s involved in getting UltraDev I realized that this tool had a lot of potential but I needed to re-learn everything I was familiar with from using Microsoft apps. At first development was moving forward at a craw. After reading some of the many UltraDev resource sites and a few books my ability to create highly interactive applications has skyrocketed.

UltraDev is very strong in the fact that like Frontpage there are automated "features" to control db navigation, etc. The difference is that you can edit the code as needed to make it function the way you want it to and not the way Microsoft tells you it will. (Minus the spooky diet

This can be a great learning experience because not only can you learn how to do backend coding but you can make changes and see the results instantly. (Thanks to their ability to show live data in the development process)

UltraDev also has a built in feature to allow other users to extend the functionality of the system by writing extensions. These are similar to a Frontpage "adin" however are much more flexible for the developer. (One must know Java though to create...I do not)

The final thing that I like about UltraDev is that it does not add "Junk code" and follows the W3C guidelines on things such as table borders, etc thus making your applications more compatible with other browsers besides IE. (I wish we only had IE)

All in all I like both of them. I have shifted 90% of my work to UltraDev but still use Frontpage. I feel Frontpage is a valuable tool and will meet the needs of 75% of developers out there. The other 25% will use tools like Go Live, UltraDev, etc.

Just my thoughts as a Frontpage user getting into UltraDev.

PROS:
It seems to write cleaner code.

I love the different colors that tags, strings and key words get.

It does a decent job of writing JavaScript. FrontPage really has HUGE bloat in that regard.

There are a billion features.

The split screen view... very cool

Here a some of the cons as I see it >

The split screen view... I know I have it listed as a PRO, but it has some drawbacks. JavaScript does not run in it and the WYSIWYG is more easily screwed up than the FP preview (I think that is mostly due to mixing ASP / JavaScript and HTML). Overall I like it, but I wish they had a "Preview" screen also.

Can you say "resource hog". DreamWeaver UltraDev takes almost as long to load as NetScape and eats at your available memory.

It is much more confusing to learn than FrontPage. To date, I still have not been able to save work from DreamWeaver to my offsite server. Any work I do with DW I test on my box (running Win2K with IIS) and then use FrontPage to quickly send to my hosted account.

It is expensive.

End PRO / CON

For me, it was not worth the price tag. I have been writing web applications where I use 90% ASP and 10% HTML. If the ratio was the other way around then DW would be excellent, but for me there are better ASP development tools.

It may have good database development features, but I write my own (which I am sure will always be better than being automatically generated) so I have not used it.

I think FrontPage can allow you to build a site faster, but DreamWeaver has so many cool features that you will love tweaking your site with it.

I think if you want to be an indepent developer / contractor you must have an understanding of both tools.

Ultimately, it in not the tool that will build a great site or program, but it is the skill and creativity of the individual that will define excellence.

For me, I use ASP Express and the Win2K version of Notepad.

Joe

[This message has been edited by jbennett (edited 11-13-2001).]

I at first had a hard time publishing too. (I like the FP way of doing it better)

I then came across an extention that allows you to publish with FP Extentions This is freaking great. It took a while to get use to using it but now that I am done...WOW

I could not give you the link because it is dynamic so I will e-mail the file to you.

Frontpage to me, is about the ease of managing files. Without the familiarity of the program, its also a pitfall.

I havent used DW at all, other than a fleeting try of a demo.
I cant justify the price, for what would in all probability, be a glorified "Textpad" for manual coding. The same as I do now.

Its a similar argument to the purists view of hand coding HTML as opposed to a wysiwyg view via frontpage.

I prefer to handcode, not because I have to, but because I want to.
If I didnt want to, then I would look firstly in the DW direction too.

What a cool extension!

Why doesn't DW come with this built-in?

Then again, why does it support ASP 2.0 and not 3.0?

Thanks for the email and the extension.

Joe

I thought you would like it. Once you get that down and play with the different extensions that come with it and others that are free on the net you will see why I like it so much.

I, unlike spooky, am not good enough to hand code everything. I like DU because I can do the layout with a WYSIWYG interface then tweak it. (Unlike Frontpage) I also have learned so much about ASP coding from this and like the fact that when you use an extension or automated item that it documents the code very well and you can learn a lot from it.

That extension was written by Macromedia and was posted to Macromedia Exchange. I am sure they will build that in the next release. Let's just hope they build in ASP 3.0 and .Net

When I have my first site with DU live I will show it to you. This should go live on Monday. I will also show you one of my better sites in Front Page.

Later,

Joe