Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (Full Version)

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TravelswCharlie -> Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/20/2007 11:51:12)

I'm not in the business of creating websites for pay, but I'd guess those who do must face many of the same problems I did in the copywriting and documentation business... and convincing clients of how much a job *should* cost is near the top of the list.

This article, from the Clickz Network, has a lot of facts and ideas to help you get what you're worth. (Well... make that "a lot closer" to what you are worth.)

How Much Does a Web Page Cost?
http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3625267



jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/20/2007 12:02:58)

quote:

The team that builds this page is made up of the usual suspects:

* A "Web strategist" who might be an owner-level person offering strategic guidance: $80,000 a year

* A "senior producer" who's the account manager: $54,000 per year

* A "creative director" who leads the creative development: $80,000 per year

* An "art director " who does the heavy design lifting; $61,000 per year

* A "Web designer" who puts the page together: $48,000 per year

* A "Web developer" who's really the programmer who makes the form work and integrates it with the database: $60,000 per year

* A "copywriter" who writes the copy for the page: $65,000 per year.

Those numbers come from the AIGA, and the team seems like a reasonable mix to get the job done. The salaries seem low to me but represent median salaries across the country for these positions. Your mileage may vary.
So as I'm a one man band, I should be costing myself out based on an annual salary of $443,000. My next site will therefore cost $1700 per page, or there abouts. If you want a counter call it a round $2k. [;)]



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/20/2007 14:27:24)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybeeSo as I'm a one man band, I should be costing myself out based on an annual salary of $443,000. My next site will therefore cost $1700 per page, or there abouts. If you want a counter call it a round $2k. [;)]

Exactly the point we need to get across to our potential clients!




womble -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/20/2007 16:06:16)

Funny this should come up. I had a conversation last week with a taxi driver, who'd been talking to a customer who was apparently a web designer and who told him he earned £300 an hour (he did say the said customer had been out drinking all night and he was taking him home at 5am though). He wondered why I laughed and asked if his sites were gold plated.



Mike54 -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/20/2007 16:35:39)

quote:

who told him he earned £300 an hour

All well and good but how many hours a year does he actually work?[;)][:D]



Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 15:37:24)


quote:

ORIGINAL: womble

I had a conversation last week with a taxi driver, who'd been talking to a customer who was apparently a web designer and who told him he earned £300 an hour (he did say the said customer had been out drinking all night and he was taking him home at 5am though). He wondered why I laughed and asked if his sites were gold plated.


Why is this so funny? I estimate I make between $100-$300 / hour for most initial site developments. With FP, I once made a quarter-thousand page site structured for uploadable content using SSI in about 6 solid hours. The price tag on that was ... significant. Too bad they went out of business before the project finished. Grrrrr.

But Mike54 is right. I do design only an average of 4-10 hours a week, plus a couple more for updating content. The rest is accounting, marketing, and playing online games. The first two in the equation brings the hourly rate down a lot.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 17:15:05)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken of Kentropolis

Why is this so funny?


I also am puzzled as to why no one took it seriously.

I guess web development is not as much like running a documentation business as I thought... and no one here has had the experience of having a client turn purple and shout "You are going to charge me WHAT for one MEASLY PAGE!?!?"

The author did not intend to suggest $3,500 per page, but only to break down many complex elements to help explain to a client why a page does cost so much.

So how do you determine what to charge for a very simple web site?

What if a client wanted five pages, built with a FrontPage pre-built template... nothing original except the text, with the client supplying the text.

You hand it off to them when it's complete and you have no future involvement.

What would that be worth?








Mike54 -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 17:28:26)

quote:

What if a client wanted five pages, built with a FrontPage pre-built template... nothing original except the text, with the client supplying the text.

You hand it off to them when it's complete and you have no future involvement.

What would that be worth?

I would use Kens range ($100-$300 /hr) and show them how to use FP to accomplish their goal. That way they could take care of their own updates and truly have no more involvement when I was done. It would be up to client to determine when they felt competent to do the site. Having someone who has a clue walk you through it has a much easier learning curve than doing it alone.

If they insisted I do the site I'd use the same range, it would take an hour or so (depending on the content, I'm a slow typer [:D]) but I'm sure it wouldn't cost as much as learning to do it themselves.



Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 17:36:02)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TravelswCharlie
What would that be worth?


I MIGHT give them a discount, but usually I rebuild sites from scratch according to my own specs, ie. structured for easy content adjustment.

I don't think of it as "by the hour" but in terms of "as long as it takes to get it right". Scans, graphics work, reformatting text, even creating copy from scratch ... there's no nicle and diming on how many bullet points of links they can have. But I use the 4-6 page range (plus interactive form, basic SEO work, etc.) as a standard guide.

If people make it easy for me, I just cut them slack on extras at no charge.

As for teaching them FP ... almost always a bad idea. As simple as it is, it's still just a tool, and people don't know how to represent themselves in the medium. My business is about branding and real-world function, not about code. So if it's my work, I try to insist on doing all the updating so I can use it in my protfolio. Otherwise, there are messes that eventually need to be cleaned up.



rubyaim -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 17:47:22)

How do you know how long to charge for if it's hourly?

For instance, I work on the company intranets, and they have an accounting system where my work for different departments is charged out at a certain rate, and I have to log my hours. Often I don't log what it actually took as I ran into problems, or was trying something different.

Actual database work I charge out accurately as I'm confident with that, and same for html /css - but when it comes to server side stuff to talk to the database, I seem to only log about a quarter of what it actually takes, and much of that is in my own time as I don't feel I can justify my pratting around being done in work time...

How do others handle this?



Mike54 -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 17:51:00)

quote:

As for teaching them FP ... almost always a bad idea.

I don't disagree but... in the context proposed
quote:

a client wanted five pages, built with a FrontPage pre-built template... nothing original except the text, with the client supplying the text.

I am NOT teaching them FP only showing them how to use it to accomplish what they want. That much is just too simple.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 21:03:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike54

quote:

What if a client wanted five pages, built with a FrontPage pre-built template... nothing original except the text, with the client supplying the text.

You hand it off to them when it's complete and you have no future involvement.

What would that be worth?

I would use Kens range ($100-$300 /hr) and show them how to use FP to accomplish their goal. That way they could take care of their own updates and truly have no more involvement when I was done. It would be up to client to determine when they felt competent to do the site. Having someone who has a clue walk you through it has a much easier learning curve than doing it alone.

If they insisted I do the site I'd use the same range, it would take an hour or so (depending on the content, I'm a slow typer [:D]) but I'm sure it wouldn't cost as much as learning to do it themselves.

I agree with all your points, but you are on a different scenario with many variables. What I'm trying to come up with is a set price for a 5 page basic site that would be complete in itself, like an online brochure.

Then, everything after that, additional pages, and/or teaching them as much as they need... or want to pay for... would be at additional cost.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 21:20:15)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rubyaim

How do you know how long to charge for if it's hourly?

For instance, I work on the company intranets, and they have an accounting system where my work for different departments is charged out at a certain rate, and I have to log my hours. Often I don't log what it actually took as I ran into problems, or was trying something different.

Actual database work I charge out accurately as I'm confident with that, and same for html /css - but when it comes to server side stuff to talk to the database, I seem to only log about a quarter of what it actually takes, and much of that is in my own time as I don't feel I can justify my pratting around being done in work time...

How do others handle this?


That's the 64,000 dollar question as we used to say...
and the reason you have to be careful not to quote too low an hourly price.

I do just as you do... and I suspect most self-employed writers, artists, and programmers do... charge according to what the job is worth, and if it's something we don't know well and have to put in extra time, well, that's just the cost of doing business.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 21:34:10)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken of Kentropolis


quote:

ORIGINAL: TravelswCharlie
What would that be worth?


I MIGHT give them a discount, but usually I rebuild sites from scratch according to my own specs, ie. structured for easy content adjustment.

I don't think of it as "by the hour" but in terms of "as long as it takes to get it right". Scans, graphics work, reformatting text, even creating copy from scratch ... there's no nicle and diming on how many bullet points of links they can have. But I use the 4-6 page range (plus interactive form, basic SEO work, etc.) as a standard guide.

If people make it easy for me, I just cut them slack on extras at no charge.

As for teaching them FP ... almost always a bad idea. As simple as it is, it's still just a tool, and people don't know how to represent themselves in the medium. My business is about branding and real-world function, not about code. So if it's my work, I try to insist on doing all the updating so I can use it in my protfolio. Otherwise, there are messes that eventually need to be cleaned up.


quote:

I don't think of it as "by the hour" but in terms of "as long as it takes to get it right". Scans, graphics work, reformatting text, even creating copy from scratch ... there's no nicle and diming on how many bullet points of links they can have. But I use the 4-6 page range (plus interactive form, basic SEO work, etc.) as a standard guide.


OK... so USUALLY, there will be more to a site, but just as a starting point, consider my example of a 5 page very simple, very basic site, that you might build in an hour, using a familar template and all FP's easy tools

What would the market bear for that site?

$100? $250? $500? or more?



Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/21/2007 22:09:08)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TravelswCharlie
OK... so USUALLY, there will be more to a site, but just as a starting point, consider my example of a 5 page very simple, very basic site, that you might build in an hour, using a familar template and all FP's easy tools

What would the market bear for that site?

$100? $250? $500? or more?



I get US$1120.00 all day long for this size project. And I'm in a cheap, depressed area. My prices are almost perfectly average to the penny in my market.

The big boys with big overhead charge more, but provide more intense presentation. The weekend wanabees charge a couple hundred dollars and usually it shows.



jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 5:35:08)

quote:

What would the market bear for that site?

$100? $250? $500? or more?
That depends on your market. Do your research locally, find out what similar businesses are charging.

For an absolute basic site of 5 pages I'd charge the UK equivalent to $500 (£500 which is actually $1k but that's exchange rates for you) but I can rattle off a 5 page basic site pretty quick. Usually done and dusted in a day. And NOT using FrontPage's easy tools. [:'(]

quote:

I get US$1120.00 all day long for this size project.
Blimey! What planet do you live on? If I was charging £1120 a day I'd starve.



Spooky -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 6:02:45)

quote:

If I was charging £1120 a day I'd starve.

[sm=rofl6.gif]



Reflect -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 7:08:28)

quote:

OK... so USUALLY, there will be more to a site, but just as a starting point, consider my example of a 5 page very simple, very basic site, that you might build in an hour, using a familar template and all FP's easy tools

What would the market bear for that site?


I think there are variables that you are not seeing or taking into account.

1) What country and state do the clients reside in?

2) What size business are they?

3) How fast do they want it?

4) How well known are you/the examples in your portfolio.

I think the above will always slant the charges.

Example:

A small mom and pop startup do not have deep pockets that say a university or a fortune listed company has.

I think if you are busy at the time of the requested work you can state a higher price and work longer hours to squeeze the clients request in 9Making them aware). Do you have an impressive portfolio? Do you have a laundry list of happy clients who will recommend you if called?

I know when I do business, being the client not the firm, I do my homework on the company. I then slant my known money to match what level I think the company is. Why pay top price for a person who will take twice as long as they are new to doing business? Why pay top dollar to a business that won't return your phone calls in a reasonable (predefined) amount of time? Now I would pay top dollar, if my budget allows it, for someone who would cut through the SEO puzzle and can show me proven results.

I think at the end the question is determined by PERCEIVED value. I may have $10K to burn on a site. I might not want to burn it with you (general not targeted at anyone in the thread).

Sorry to ramble,

Brian



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 7:29:54)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
quote:

What would the market bear for that site?

$100? $250? $500? or more?

That depends on your market. Do your research locally, find out what similar businesses are charging.

But what is "locally"? I didn't think there was any such thing as a "local market" when dealing with the www.

quote:


For an absolute basic site of 5 pages I'd charge the UK equivalent to $500 (£500 which is actually $1k but that's exchange rates for you) but I can rattle off a 5 page basic site pretty quick. Usually done and dusted in a day.

I got lost in the conversions there, but I think you said $500 USD. That sounds about right to me... about what I'd charge for the same size brochure.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 7:50:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken of Kentropolis
I get US$1120.00 all day long for this size project. And I'm in a cheap, depressed area. My prices are almost perfectly average to the penny in my market.


That sounds like a lot for a basic 5 pages... but I could understand a base price of $1,000, and "for that you get up to 10 pages".

Again, I'm puzzled by the reference to "local" prices. If I were looking for someone to build a website for me, I wouldn't go down to the local mall, I'd look on the Internet.





Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 8:41:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TravelswCharlie
Again, I'm puzzled by the reference to "local" prices. If I were looking for someone to build a website for me, I wouldn't go down to the local mall, I'd look on the Internet.


Maybe that's just you. I think most people would be overwhelmed trying to find a web site designer online.

A few clients found me through my client's sites, but (at least around here) people ask their friends who they know, and wont even look in the phone book for what we do.

I believe most people will not look globally unless they see an advertisement. Many people don't want to "ask the wrong questions" over the phone with someone they never heard of before who lives far enough away they cannot be visited in person. They want someone to deal with them personally, having some connection or recommendation to justifytheir initial trust.

I have a number of clients out of town, but I think only ONE of them over the years was without some local roots or connection.

Not arguing the point, just sharing my own limited experience. I'm sure things may be different if your target market is different -- I focus on the ones that need some hand-holding ... and don't charge extra for it! :P



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 8:43:41)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflect
I think there are variables that you are not seeing or taking into account.


Yes. I am seeing them... I know about them... but for this example, I'm not taking them into account.

In the real world, there are many variables, as you point out, and my 5-page basic site would rarely happen in the real world.

But there's no way to get an answer to "what should a website cost" unless you go as basic as possible and strip out all the variables.




jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 9:34:05)

quote:

and my 5-page basic site would rarely happen in the real world.
Happens more often than you'd think. I've done two in the last month.

Locally refers to geographic and demographic. So for example, I'm way out side London. If I'm doing a site for a local business I charge the same as I would for a small business in a similar sort of location anywhere in the South of England. If I was doing one for a start-up "oop north" where their cost of living and thus wages are much less, (they only eat bread and dripping and there's no electricity) then if I wanted the work I'd probably have to cut prices.

If however I was doing one for a client in London then I can charge more and, in order to get the work I'd probably have to quote more or they'd think I was too cheap and therefore no good.

The conversion thing above. Usually in the UK if something costs £100 then in the US it costs $100. Straight £ for $. However, if you use the exchange rate, £100 is actually worth $200 so if we buy the same thing as you we're paying double. Rip off Britain is the name for it.

So if you quote $500, I quote £500 ($1000), which is why I'm unlikely to get work doing US sites unless I cut my rates by 50% or go into competition with Ken. [:D]



jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 9:39:35)

All my work comes from word of mouth. Locals and friends telling other locals and friends. I don't deal with Internet bartering although I'd look at it if it came along on a case by case basis.

I've done sites for people all over the UK. I've never advertised. If people find my site it's usually by referral or accident as I haven't really bothered to do any SEO on it up until this week when I had some spare time and figured I should. I now have to wait to see what Google makes of it but even then, I'm targetting local keywords.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 9:59:05)

That’s surprising and enlightening.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps it is just me. It’s true I shop on the Internet more than other most people I know.




jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 10:05:32)

I buy everything on the web too but take a local shop owner for example. This actually happened two weeks ago. He's stood behind his counter wondering when he'll get a customer.

I go in and ask for a business card holder. He presents me with this enormous thing for keeping on your desk and I say Nooooo! I need something I can keep my own cards in so they don't get dirty in my purse or handbag.

He's hunting through his stock and asks me what business I do. I tell him. OOOOOOO he says, how much................

Now assuming it would have even occurred to him to have a site had I not been there, he has no computer in the shop so might have got the yellow pages out and gone through lists of the big design companies who charge the earth and would have scared the pants off him.



Ken of Kentropolis -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 10:11:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
He's hunting through his stock and asks me what business I do. I tell him. OOOOOOO he says, how much................

Now assuming it would have even occurred to him to have a site had I not been there, he has no computer in the shop so might have got the yellow pages out and gone through lists of the big design companies who charge the earth and would have scared the pants off him.


Exactly. In fact, this happened to me yesterday. During the break in Tai Chi class (I'm the teacher), I found out one of my students owns a business and when they asked me what I do ...



Tailslide -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 11:07:07)

All of my clients in the last year come from my own geographical region (furthest away was about 25 miles). The search engine key phrases on my site are "Website Design in Bedfordshire" and "Bedford Website Design" or something similar - I forget - for which I rank highly.

I've cut back on advertising as I was in Yellow Page and Yell.com but I've cancelled that for this year as my best results come from word of mouth and Google.

I've found that people like to meet face to face if they can - particularly small businesses - and so they appreciate a local firm. I always ask them how they found me and invariably it's "I typed in Website Design Bedfordshire into Google".

That said, Southern England is very densely populated so this tactic may well not work well in places less populated or places with larger distances between towns etc.



TravelswCharlie -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 11:20:33)

You two remind me of real estate.

The top salesman where I once worked, told me:

"Never step out of the office without sales in mind. If you stop for gas, tell the attendant, "I don't want to run out of gas because I'm showing this "really beautiful house" or "great investment" and so on.

He took it from there to convince me to always be on the lookout, and to get in the habit of always having cards close at hand.

And not just in a card case... a couple in a pocket is much easier to pop out and hand to a stranger... and doesn't get them defensive thinking you are trying to sell them something.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken of Kentropolis

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
He's hunting through his stock and asks me what business I do. I tell him. OOOOOOO he says, how much................

Now assuming it would have even occurred to him to have a site had I not been there, he has no computer in the shop so might have got the yellow pages out and gone through lists of the big design companies who charge the earth and would have scared the pants off him.


Exactly. In fact, this happened to me yesterday. During the break in Tai Chi class (I'm the teacher), I found out one of my students owns a business and when they asked me what I do ...





jaybee -> RE: Getting Paid What Your Work is Worth (3/22/2007 19:08:35)

I'm a girlie, I don't have pockets.



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