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Microsoft MVP

 

Contracts Again!

 
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All Forums >> Web Development >> Search Engine Optimization and Web Business >> Contracts Again!
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Nicole

 

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Nambucca / Kempsey, Australia
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Contracts Again! - 4/25/2007 3:37:45   
I know we’ve discussed contract sizes many times before, but it seems that this time I may be losing a potential client who has already agreed in principle to my quote, just because my contract is too extensive.

I know there are proponents for and against comprehensive contracts, I know a large contract (on first impression) may scare a client but I also understand that without including many points can only increase the chances of scope creep.

With this particular client it’s a minor project, only 8 – 10 pages, one form, hardly any graphics and I did re-word the contract somewhat to suit their needs and placed “N/A” (not applicable) in bold next to any point in the contract that certainly didn’t apply. I could’ve taken those N/A points out but then the numbering of the points would’ve had to be changed throughout the document.

He’s a friend of my partner and tends to put things off in favour or more urgent work, so I called him a few days ago having not heard back from them in about 3 weeks since sending the contract. He told me that it had been sitting on his desk, he obviously read it that afternoon because he contacted my partner and told him he just couldn’t sign anything that comprehensive – couldn’t we just do this by agreed letter (or something like that). Don’t ask me why he went to my partner about this, it’s probably one of those male chauvinist things?

Anyway, I can’t really see the problem in agreeing to a comprehensive contract. Some doesn’t apply and that’s been acknowledge so there’s no problem with that, if he feels there are other things he doesn’t want – then why doesn’t he put “N/A” next to it, or give me a call to ask me to explain why it’s in there?

My contract covers 37 points over 14 pages, but before others start questioning that, please take into account the way it’s been laid out in MS Word, line spacing of 1.5, sufficient space between headings and paragraphs, and the NixDesign logo on the front page. There are also 6 appendices over 14 pages, several with only one paragraph but as they’re appendices, each one needs to start on a new page. I could cramp everything up a lot and probably reduce the pages by half, but it’d still be a hell of a read and harder to read because of it.

There is plenty in it that tells the client what I’ll do for them, just as there’s a lot saying what I expect of them, so it’s not a very demanding contract on my part.

In this case I’ll probably bow to the pressure and write something much shorter as he is a friend of ours and he was the guy who paid me to caretake the last property I lived in, but I don’t want to keep doing this for other clients for scope creep reasons.

I’m willing to send my contract to anyone from this forum if they’re genuinely interested with helping to suggest ways I can shorten things, but for others my contract contains the following:

aa. Contract Number & Client Details
1. Authorisation
2. Hosting service
3. Domain registration
4. Disbursements & Cost Recovery
5. Training
6. Base Package / Graphic Creation / Email
7. Text
8. Links
9. Cross Browser Compatibility
10. Graphic Creation & Banners
11. Photography
12. Scanning
13. Forms
14. E-commerce
15. Secure Certificates
16. Merchant Account
17. Payments / Work Flow
18. Client Amends
19. Maintenance Agreements
20. Third Party or Client Page Modification
21. CD Burning
22. SEO
23. Assignment of Project
24. Additional Expenses
25. Copyrights & Trademarks
26. Age
27. Limited Liability
28. Indemnification
29. Laws affecting E-commerce
30. Ownership to Web Pages & Graphics
31. Design Credit
32. Non-Disclosure
33. Client Referral Program
34. Completion Date
35. Cancellation
36. Force majeure
37. Arbitration
38. Entire Understanding

Appendices

a. Glossary of Terms
b. Areas Serviced
c. Price List
d. Scope of Work
e. Maintenance Agreement
f. Approved Contractors



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Donkey

 

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From: Blackfield United Kingdom
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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/25/2007 7:38:16   
That's a very big contract and in my opinion totally unnecessary. As a prospective client I would be frightened off by that, time is short and I don't want to waste it running my brain past a lot of scenarios that are never going to happen.

I have dealt with a lot of different creative consultancies, research companies, PR and advertising outfits in the past. Including some big organisations. None have ever asked me to read a contract more than 3-4 pages long, and most used a single page of A4 in the form of a letter rather than a contract.

Ask yourself, do you ever bother to read the terms and conditions that every small piece of grotty software you ever install throws at you? It is too much trouble, so why put a prospective client through it?

Anyway, I'm sure these large contracts must be contributing to the global warming fiasco and ruining our environment. (I blame the government!)


<edit>
I just realised that I've not been very helpful, just critical. So here's an idea. Put all the long-winded boring stuff on a web page then use a one page contract and refer them to your terms and conditions on-line.
</edit>

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I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't.
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(in reply to Nicole)
Tailslide

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/25/2007 8:57:34   
My contract is two pages of A4 which consists of the agreed costs, a description of the design/build process and a paragraph on each of the following points:

1. Copyright
2. Fees
3. Payment Terms
4. Consequential Loss
5. Search Engines
6. Browsers
7. Completion of Work
8. Supply of Materials
9. Approval of Work
10. Rejected Work
11. Right to Terminate
12. Events beyond my control

There's zero chance of any of my clients (small business types) ever looking at a larger contract. They'll just think I'm out to fool them and they'll go elsewhere. I doubt any of them actually read the two pages (I've had one query in over two years). I did have a big long contract drawn up by a solicitor - but it was ridiculous, I've never used it. I abbreviated it down to the salient points on the two pages.

I was told elsewhere that there's a general principle in English law that if you have a big complex contract it's easier for clients' lawyers to find loopholes. If you have a simpler, generalised agreement then courts tend to view the spirit of the agreement instead making it harder to pick holes in. I don't know how true that is mind you!



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(in reply to Donkey)
Nicole

 

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Nambucca / Kempsey, Australia
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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/26/2007 5:57:21   
Thanks Donkey & Tail.

So it looks like I'm spending a good part of my weekend condensing my contract quite a bit.

Much appreciated comments, thanks.

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jaybee

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/26/2007 6:04:43   
I've recently redone mine as by the time I'd done contract, quote, scope etc I was shipping out a 16 page document even though it was double sided and therefore physically 8. It was scaring me every time I did one so what the clients thought Lord knows.

I'm now going for 2 pages in plain English, none of this "The Client" and "The Developer" stuff, just here's the cost, this is what you get. If it's not mentioned it's not included.

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Now where did I put that Doctype?

(in reply to Nicole)
jaybee

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/26/2007 11:37:44   
quote:

My contract is two pages of A4 which consists of the agreed costs, a description of the design/build process and a paragraph on each of the following points:

1. Copyright
2. Fees
3. Payment Terms
4. Consequential Loss
5. Search Engines
6. Browsers
7. Completion of Work
8. Supply of Materials
9. Approval of Work
10. Rejected Work
11. Right to Terminate
12. Events beyond my control
And you get that on 2 pages? Is it really small print?

I've spent all afternoon going through mine again to try and reduce it. I'm using a separate sheet for the scope of work and the contract itself is still 3 pages and has nothing about points 5 and 6.

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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is.
:)

:)
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Now where did I put that Doctype?

(in reply to jaybee)
Tailslide

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/26/2007 13:06:26   

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
And you get that on 2 pages? Is it really small print?



Yes. Some of those paragraphs are very short mind you.


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jaybee

 

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From: Berkshire, UK
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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/30/2007 6:43:57   
Well I now have 2 versions.

One is two pages and printed double sided is one sheet but the Scope has to go on another page.

The second expands and contracts depending on how big the project is but is written in plain English. The smallest it'll get is 2 pages double sided but it contains everything.

I'm going to a business breakfast seminar tomorrow morning with a contracts expert so I'll take both versions and get them looked at.

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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is.
:)

:)
GAWDS
Now where did I put that Doctype?

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BobbyDouglas

 

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From: Arizona
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RE: Contracts Again! - 4/30/2007 15:35:27   
Our contracts are roughly 6-8 pages, but we also remove items that are not reated to the website. I have only had 1 client ever complain about the length of the contract. The client was only doing a $2000 site, so they weren't really expecting a professional contract. I'd rather lose a client than remove any clauses in the contract. The client that complained, still signed, but I had to explain a few things to her that were slightly technical.

One of our other clients mentioned that his contracts are only a page in length, and said ours was too long. He works with million/billion dollars companies like HP, IBM, Texas Inst, etc... We plan to have a lawyer review our contract and find places to clean it up. We'll see what happens.

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jaybee

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/3/2007 9:29:17   
http://www.devant.co.uk/resources/podcasts/

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:)

:)
GAWDS
Now where did I put that Doctype?

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Nicole

 

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Nambucca / Kempsey, Australia
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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/5/2007 23:52:46   
Thanks for the help everyone.

I've re-written my contract for basic websites, I'm not convinced that I'll be able to use it for anything more complex but at least I'm happy with it as mentioned - for basis sites.

It's 8 pages long, but that is in Word with a line height of 1.5, without that it's 6 pages.

Two of those pages are specifically for a "Scope of Work" and a "Maintenance Agreement", and the first half of the first page is taken up with my clients details. So in effect it's a 3.5 page contract.



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Donkey

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/8/2007 8:27:02   
Still far too long IMHO, Particularly for a small site. I would be suspicious as to why you need such a detailed contract, thinking "are you trying to cheat me in some way"?

My view is that you can't cover your ass for every little detail so just state the obvious things and take a small risk with the rest. If you think they look a bit dodgy get payment up front (or a 50% deposit).

On very small sites a contract is not even necessary just a letter from you stating your terms and conditions (1 page max).

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I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't.
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jaybee

 

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From: Berkshire, UK
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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/8/2007 9:09:16   
Hang on, can we check that we're all talking the same thing.

1 page letter are you including scope in this?

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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is.
:)

:)
GAWDS
Now where did I put that Doctype?

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Donkey

 

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From: Blackfield United Kingdom
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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/8/2007 9:32:50   
Yes, if it is necessary but just bullet points not fine detail.

_____________________________

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I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't.
Samuel Clemens

(in reply to jaybee)
jaybee

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/8/2007 10:28:30   
SO where are you putting the detail? In a separate page?

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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is.
:)

:)
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Now where did I put that Doctype?

(in reply to Donkey)
Nicole

 

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/15/2004
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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/8/2007 18:02:44   
Look, lets ditch the actual number of pages idea. I have a proper letterhead header on the opening page, and my logo on the top of all other pages. The first page is mostly taken up with my clients details, then at the end i have a 1 page scope of work and a 1 page maintenance agreement if necessary.

The entire document is laid out in georgia font with a line height of 1.5. Headings in 12pt and paragraphs in 9pt. It could easily be squashed up and font changed to arial and 8pt - but I want it to look professional.

quote:


Website Design, Development and Maintenance Contract No: XXXXXX

Company/Business/Client: XXXXXXXX

ABN: XXXXXXXX Phone: XXXXXXXXXX Fax: XXXXXXXXXX

Authorised Representative of the Client: XXXXXXXXXX

Address: XXXXXXXXXX

City/Suburb: XXXXX State: XXX Postcode: XXXX

E-mail Address: XXXXXX

Current Website URL (if applicable): XXXXXX

Current Web Host (if applicable): XXXX

Terms of Agreement

1. Authorisation

XXXXXX is engaging NixDesign, as an independent contractor for the specific purpose of developing an Internet Website suitable for a (business type) to be installed on the Client’s web space located on an Web Hosting Provider’s server.

Hereafter, XXXXXX is referred to as the “Client” and NixDesign will be known as “NixDesign”

2. Hosting & Domain Name Registration

The Client will organise web hosting and domain name registration for the website or will request that NixDesign organise these on their behalf.

3. Base Package / Graphic Creation / E-mail

This agreement encompasses up to the number of web pages agreed upon, with layout and graphic creation included and agreed to in the “Scope of Work” see Appendix A.

4. Content

All content shall be provided by the Client either as an email, an email attachment in Microsoft Word.doc format or as a machine printed document easily legible and able to be scanned.

It is the sole responsibility of the Client to supply NixDesign complete text and graphics content for all web pages contracted. Should the Client fail to perform in this respect NixDesign reserves the right to cease development of the website. If necessary, NixDesign undertakes to send reminder notices to the Client setting out NixDesign’s requirements in respect of receiving all text and graphics to construct the website.

5. Cross Browser Compatibility.

This agreement includes the creation of a web site viewable by Netscape 6.0, Mozilla 1.0, Mozilla Firefox 1.0, Opera 7.0 and Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 and above. Compatibility is defined herein as all critical elements of each page being viewable and functional in these browsers.

6. Payment Terms / Work Flow

A minimum deposit comprising half of NixDesign’s quoted fee is required to commence work.

Once the deposit is received by NixDesign, if applicable, domain name registration will take place as well as web hosting organised and basic site design concepts will begin.

Once the initial design is completed, the Client’s website will be put online for the Client's viewing and approval. Communication between NixDesign and the Client is crucial during this phase to ensure that the final publication will match the Client's tastes and needs.

Upon completion of this stage, the Client will be asked to confirm acceptance for the basic site design via e-mail. Once this acceptance is received from the Client, the work necessary to complete the project will begin.

Upon completion of the web site, an e-mail or letter and invoice will be sent to the Client advising the Client that the work has been completed. Final payment of the remaining balance, plus any additional charges (see section 7 – Client Amends), incurred will fall due within thirty (30) business days after delivery of this e-mail or letter and invoice.

Upon receipt of the balance, the Client’s website will be uploaded to the Internet under the Client’s registered domain name. Under no circumstances will the Client’s websites be published online before final payment is received and cleared by a financial institution in the case of payments made by cheque.

Payment will be accepted by cash, cheque, money order, direct deposit or Paypal. Please note: Credit Card payments will not be accepted.

7. Client Amends

We encourage input from the Client during the design process but also understand that Clients may request significant design changes to pages that have already been built to the Client's specifications. To that end, please note that our agreement does not include a provision for "significant page modification" or creation of additional pages in excess of our agreed page maximum. If significant page modification is requested after a page has been built to the Client's specifications, we must count it as additional work.

Significant page modifications at the request of the Client include but are not limited to:

 Developing a new structure to accommodate a substantial redesign at the Client's request.
 Recreating or significantly modifying the company logo graphic at the Client's request.
 Replacing more than 75% of the text to any given page at the Client's request.
 Creating a new navigation structure or changing the link graphics at the Client's request.

NixDesign reserves the right in its sole discretion to determine the meaning of Significant Page Modification.

If significant page modification is requested by the Client after the page maximum has been reached, additional charges will be in accordance with our hourly rate. Moderate changes, however, will always be covered during development of the site and also covered by our one month of free maintenance immediately following the signing of the NixDesign Website Completion Contract.

Again, we strive to accommodate the needs of each Client and we maintain a liberal redesign policy. We cannot, however, provide major redevelopment services to the Client in excess of the page maximum contemplated by this agreement.

8. Maintenance Agreements

If the Client decides to have NixDesign maintain the website upon completion, a Maintenance Agreement and the terms of same will be listed as Appendix B to this agreement.


9. Search Engine Optimization

NixDesign will optimize the Clients web site with appropriate titles, keywords, descriptions and text. NixDesign however, cannot guarantee the completed website’s ranking position in any particular search engine.

10. Copyrights and Trademarks

The Client represents to NixDesign and unconditionally guarantees that any elements of text, graphics, photographs, designs, trademarks, or other artwork furnished to NixDesign for inclusion in the Client's web site are owned by the Client, or that the Client has express consent from the rightful owner to use each of these elements, and indemnifies NixDesign from all liability whatsoever.

11. Ownership to Web Pages and Graphics.

Copyright to the finished assembled work of websites produced by NixDesign shall be vested with the Client upon final payment for the project. This ownership is to include all content text, all supplied images , all graphics, source code and all other elements supplied by the client to NixDesign for the purposes of creating a website. Rights to purchased photographs are specifically not transferred to the Client, and typically remain the property of the photographer or the company that owns the original license.

Should any materials created by NixDesign and described in this contract be used on the web by the Client before the tender of final payment, then this contract is breached and appropriate penalties will apply.

12. Design Credit

The Client agrees that NixDesign may put a byline on the bottom of their website establishing design and development credit.

13. Completion Date

The parties agree to work together to complete the web site in a timely manner for the benefit of both parties.

We agree to work expeditiously to complete this project no later than: XXXXXX or as otherwise agreed by both parties.

14. Cancellation

Cancellation of the project at the request of either party shall be given by email or facsimile giving 30 days notice.

18. Entire Understanding.

This contract and Appendices attached hereto constitute the entire agreement between NixDesign and the Client regarding this project. It becomes effective only when signed by both parties. It is the spirit of this agreement that this will be a mutually beneficial arrangement for the Client and NixDesign. Specific details of our agreement will be attached as Appendix A, Appendix B.

Both parties warrant that they have read and understand the terms set forth in this agreement.

This agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of New South Wales.

Signed on behalf of the Client: ________________________________________

Date ___________________

Signed on behalf of the NixDesign: _____________________________________

Date __________________



Thank you for choosing NixDesign.


Appendix A: Scope of Work

The Client has agreed to contract NixDesign to design and develop a website incorporating the following elements;

 Web hosting
 Design website (which will include the following)
 Approximately 5 - 10 pages
 Consistent colour scheme throughout entire site
 Use of Client logo and any photographs/images the Client holds copyright on, or has permission to reproduce (approximately up to 10 )
 A site map
 Website traffic analyzer
 External links (Approximately 5 - 10 )
 One Contact Form
 Cross Browser Compatibility (as per section 5 – Cross Browser Compatibility)
 Basic Search Engine Optimization (as per section 10 – Search Engine Optimization)
 Compliance with W3C Web Standards
 Compliance with Web Content Accessibility Guidelines

This work will be completed and published on the World Wide Web by XXXXXX or as otherwise agreed by both parties at a cost to the Client of $XXXXXXXXXX.



Signed on behalf of the Client: ___________________________________________

Date ___________________


Signed on behalf of the Developer: _______________________________________

Date __________________

Appendix B: Maintenance Agreement

The Client has agreed to contract NixDesign to maintain the website on an ongoing basis.

Updates Provided

 Add/Delete photographs, images, pages, external links, remove external advertisers when advised by the Client
 Add/Remove/update text within the website when text becomes obsolete or outdated

Maintenance Provided

 Check of all external links
 Check for unauthorized copyrighted material use on other websites
 Modify/Change meta tags and or content elements to assist with improved search engine ranking (if necessary)
 Monitor web site traffic and suggest design changes based on user viewing preferences

All new text and other content shall be provided by the Client either as an email, an email attachment in Microsoft Word.doc format or as a machine printed document easily legible and able to be scanned.

The Client instructs NixDesign to perform regular updates and maintenance including the above mentioned tasks as required by the Client.

All updates requested by the Client will be uploaded to the website promptly and be charged at the hourly rate of XXXXXXXXXX.

Cancellation of this maintenance agreement at the request of either party must be made giving thirty (30) days notice to the other party.




Signed on behalf of the Client: Signed on behalf of the Developer:

Date: _________________________


< Message edited by Nicole -- 5/8/2007 18:08:16 >


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Donkey

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/9/2007 7:42:39   
I would take all the detail out into a "terms and conditions of contract" document - Make it all fit on one page - 8pt is fine or even smaller. Also put it on-line with a link so that they can read it at whatever size they like.

Then write a quotation letter where you just give basic details like number of pages, deadlines etc. and your price. You don't need to repeat their address etc because it is on the top of the page.

At the bottom of the page write "By accepting this quotation you are agreeing to our current terms and conditions of contract which are attached and also available on-line at www.blahblahblah.com/terms. Please sign and return one copy of this letter with your 50% deposit of (e.g.)$25,000".

Then over-type on one copy:

Signature........................................

Name..............................................

Date................................................

For the customer it is far less intimidating to receive a letter than a lengthy contract, and you still have the protection you require.

_____________________________

:)

I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't.
Samuel Clemens

(in reply to Nicole)
womble

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/9/2007 14:22:49   
quote:

8pt is fine or even smaller.


I have to disagree on that - anything smaller than 10pt's illegible without a magnifying glass for most people. At work the "company font" is Arial 12pt - anything smaller than that's not allowed. Personally outside work I'd use either 11pt, or 10pt if I was short of space, for most things.

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carrie

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/9/2007 15:44:08   
Hi there all,

I read over the post with great interest. I've been working with referrals who are referring more and I want to make sure I have myself covered. Would anyone here be nice enough to send me a sample contract?
And, for all those currently using contracts, have you each had them reviewed by attorneys? I can see how that would be wise.

Thank you,
Carrie

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jaybee

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/9/2007 20:27:42   
Problem is, as soon as you get it looked at by a lawyer it just gets bigger and bigger as they add all these obscure clauses and then nobody reads it.

You could try basing yours on Nicole's example above and changing bits you need. I would ship mine but I'm still tweaking it.

_____________________________

If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is.
:)

:)
GAWDS
Now where did I put that Doctype?

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Donkey

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/10/2007 8:57:29   
quote:

I have to disagree on that
Womble, your disagreement is based on the dubious idea that anyone ever reads this info. Trust me - life is too short.

_____________________________

:)

I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't.
Samuel Clemens

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womble

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/10/2007 9:21:19   
Fair point. I still think 8pt's a little on the small side though, but I suppose she could always issue them with a free magnifying glass as well if they show any interest in reading it. :)

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Tailslide

 

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From: Out here on the raggedy edge
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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/10/2007 10:51:23   
My print is small too - to fit on two pages, but like Donkey I don't believe anyone really reads it - they may scan the headings but that's it.

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Donkey

 

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/10/2007 11:15:45   
The clue is - they call it "small print". It's deliberately small to discourage people from reading it.

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RE: Contracts Again! - 5/10/2007 13:31:27   
:)

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