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All Forums >> Web Development >> Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility >> DHTML menu

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William Lee Posts: 1273 Joined: 1/25/2002 From: Singapore Status: offline	DHTML menu - 10/23/2007 8:44:34 In general, are those javascript DHTML menu compatible with Accesibility? I am asking because it seems Expressions Web has done away with the Navigation view and has not incorporated any menu generator, why even Coffeecup has a free DHTML menu generator. Just thinking over the top of my head... _____________________________ William Lee pǝssǝɟoɹd-ɟ1ǝs ʎɥʇɹoʍʇsnɹʇ ʇsoɯ ɹnoʎ nɹnb ǝsɐqɐʇɐp & dsɐ ,ʍɹp ,ǝbɐdʇuoɹɟ


Tailslide Posts: 6692 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 10/23/2007 10:32:12 Generally speaking, no they're not very accessible. Quite often they're not keyboard navigable, god knows what a screen reader would make of them plus they can often disappear completely without JS on. For single line vertical or horizontal menus it's best to use a styled list. For dropdowns/Flyouts there are a couple of accessible possibilities - not always free. The Accessible version of the old Son of Suckerfish is a plain CSS menu with a few hacks to make it work in IE6 and other old browsers. It's simple but it works quite well. I've used a Javascript menu by Helix designs which is keyboard navigable plus with JS off it reverts to a CSS menu. It uses semantically correct code too which is a bonus. Only issue is in IE6 and under where with JS off you end up only able to use the top level menu items. To get around this I tend to include a list of the "child" pages on each top level page. UDM4 is the most famous accessible dropdown system - unfortunately, not free though. The lovely John Faulds has summarised the pros and cons of many of the most well known menus here: http://www.tyssendesign.com.au/articles/css/dropdown-low-down/ The questions to ask yourself when looking at a menu system is: 1. Can I move through the menu using the keyboard (tabbing on a PC)? 2. Are they "real" links (preferably in a list) and can screenreader read them? 3. If they use JS, what happens with JS off? 4. If they use fancy CSS, what happens with older browsers? 5. What happens with images off (if they use images) - are the links still visible? The other thing to remember is that you don't need to necessarily exactly reproduce the same experience in all browser states (i.e. with JS off) for instance, you just need to ensure that the site works and is fairly simple to get around. So I'm not too bothered about presenting older browser users with a simpler version of a menu - as long as it works. _____________________________ Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Land Rover project (in reply to William Lee)


William Lee Posts: 1273 Joined: 1/25/2002 From: Singapore Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 10/23/2007 22:02:10 Thanks! This is quality response. Its an education. Just brilliant!! _____________________________ William Lee pǝssǝɟoɹd-ɟ1ǝs ʎɥʇɹoʍʇsnɹʇ ʇsoɯ ɹnoʎ nɹnb ǝsɐqɐʇɐp & dsɐ ,ʍɹp ,ǝbɐdʇuoɹɟ (in reply to Tailslide)


jaybee Posts: 14320 Joined: 10/7/2003 From: Berkshire, UK Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 10/24/2007 6:07:41 Her invoice will be in the post _____________________________ If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is. GAWDS Now where did I put that Doctype? (in reply to William Lee)


mtfm Posts: 426 Joined: 1/13/2006 From: Mesa, AZ Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 10/24/2007 11:39:04 I use the accessible son of suckerfish, and it works quite nicely, I like it a lot. It's actually quite simple behind the scenes, adding a new item/level/etc is amazingly easy-- it's one of the rare times when making something accessible to the user is probably easier than not doing so. As the article mentions, the biggest drawback is that one can use both their mouse and keyboard to have two dropdowns open at once, but to my knowledge that has never come up with any of my users. (At least no one ever thought it 'odd' enough to mention to me!) _____________________________ Is this possible? How about this? What about....? (in reply to Tailslide)


William Lee Posts: 1273 Joined: 1/25/2002 From: Singapore Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 10/25/2007 3:56:56 quote: ORIGINAL: jaybee Her invoice will be in the post Kindly enclose a pair of identical snowflake too _____________________________ William Lee pǝssǝɟoɹd-ɟ1ǝs ʎɥʇɹoʍʇsnɹʇ ʇsoɯ ɹnoʎ nɹnb ǝsɐqɐʇɐp & dsɐ ,ʍɹp ,ǝbɐdʇuoɹɟ (in reply to jaybee)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/4/2008 22:19:10 I have several AJAX-based cascading menus in various places that probably aren't accesible at all but I'd like to have one that is. SO I have 2 questions: 1) Is there any tips or hints any of you have regarding AJAX and accesibility? 2) Any ideas on a dependent menu system that is accesible? Not a dropdown heirarchy but dependent menus. TIA. _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to William Lee)


Tailslide Posts: 6692 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 3:58:13 I typed a whole long thing about Ajax and people not realising that the page had been updated and managed to lose the post for some reason!! Anyway, I've got a meeting but here's a useful link re: AJAX:http://www.isolani.co.uk/presentations/abilitynet/abilitynet-feb2008-ajaxAndAccessibility.html It comes down to the same thing as with Javascript on it's own - it should be progressive enhancement. As for the dependent menus - are they the same thing as chained selects? If so then have a look here: http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/unobtrusive_dynamic_select/unobtrusivedynamicselect_ex1.html _____________________________ Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Land Rover project (in reply to rdouglass)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 8:37:41 I liked that second link - looks promising. Thanks much. Now I just need to see how it reacts to many thousand items. I'm using it to feed 2 selects - one of states and one of cities - 88K+ records. I suspect there'll be performance issues so I may need to break them out regionally. Should I be exploring some other options for this other than menus? I have a ZIP lookup already but the client insists on menus and I'm trying to do things that are accesible. I'm convinced that it can be a competative advantage and I want to have this just be a normal part of my work. Unfortunately so many clients love that AJAX stuff. Are there methods for deploying items just to screen-readers and such? I don't think much of creating separate pages but if I can do a little browser detection, I may be able to present something different in certain situations. Like would scrolling DIV's do any better? My mind says 'no' but I won't know until I ask. Is something like that ever done? Between you, jaybee, and others, you have really helped me get going on this issue and I do appreciate all the help you've given. _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to Tailslide)


Tailslide Posts: 6692 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 8:55:25 Roger - blimey that's a lot of records!! Have a look through this guy's site here: http://www.wait-till-i.com/2007/03/17/unobtrusive-connected-select-boxes-yet-another-solution-approach/ he's brilliant at Javascript and tends to think about accessibility. There's even an AJAX version there - think it relies on SS scripting if JS is off. I don't really use AJAX - occasionally fancyish Javascript but that's really it. What I tend to do if I need something (e.g. navigation) that would normally not be visible except with JS off or to screenreaders is to use javascript to write a CSS rule which moves the (whatever) off the page (postion:absolute; left:-999px;}. If you're using something like that (for example for navigation) which is really deep then it's one of the few times I'd actually use tabindex to allow focus to move over it more easily when invisible (otherwise you'd be tabbing for ages on something invisible). I'd have a skip link to go past it just before hand (also moved off screen) and tabindex for everything else - does that make sense? Then with JS off the (whatever) is now visible. _____________________________ Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Land Rover project (in reply to rdouglass)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 10:08:09 quote: does that make sense? Makes perfect sense and sounds quite 'do-able'. Thanks much! _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to Tailslide)


jaybee Posts: 14320 Joined: 10/7/2003 From: Berkshire, UK Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 13:17:56 As with most things, it's all down to the developer. Ajax, JS, PDF and Flash, the last thing on most of their minds is accessibility, they're trying to do clever. _____________________________ If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is. GAWDS Now where did I put that Doctype? (in reply to rdouglass)


rdouglass Posts: 9280 From: Biddeford, ME USA Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 14:14:31 quote: the last thing on most of their minds is accessibility Of course. So then can I draw from this a good choice would be to have any JS items disappear and show a list instead if JS is disabled? Ordered lists perhaps? But with such a number of possible list items, that would be 1 big list. I just hate to have to consider round-trips to the server for each sublist with a link - hence the original AJAX menus. Thanks for all the input. _____________________________ Don't take you're eye off your final destination. ASP Checkbox Function Tutorial. (in reply to jaybee)


Tailslide Posts: 6692 Joined: 5/10/2005 From: Out here on the raggedy edge Status: offline	RE: DHTML menu - 9/5/2008 16:06:17 With the Unobtrusive chained lists script shown it reverts to a "normal" pair of selects with all options shown (you could use opt group to make it more manageable). _____________________________ Little Blue Plane Web Design \| Land Rover project (in reply to rdouglass)

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