Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (Full Version)

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carrie -> Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 15:38:03)

Hi all,

Indulge me if you will - any advice is always greatly appreciated. I know somebody out there, if not all of you have delt with 'this guy' before

I'm a small time web designer, with a handful of clients who are happy with my work. They are happy, I am happy - we're all happy.
Until one day, a very non-committal client comes along proclaiming to know 'nothing about this sort of thing', and requesting that I 'hold his hand' and 'babystep' him through the whole process.
Since then it has been a nightmare. We had our initial meeting in which I rattled off my 13 page questionnaire that covers everything. I fired off a quote that I couldn't get to him fast enough, only to wait for 6 weeks for him to want to move on it.
Fine, I say - I had room in my schedule, we met again, sketched a little site outline, discussed content/ideas, and off I went to design.
He loved the mockup 'I'm impressed' he says - so on we went to html.
Now he has a beautiful frame, but has no idea what to put in it, which is entirely contrary to everything we had discussed in our first 2 meetings. In person, he seemed to know exactly what he wanted - I could see the bubble over his head with his idea in it. Now, he's not sure how it's all going to 'tie together', and he needs to see it 'in action' before he can decide whether or not he likes it.
Here's an example - I actually did acquire a collection of photos to be displayed. He asked me to start placing them on the website leaving room for him to write a text description underneath. I asked him for a little more direction (how many pictures of each category would you like to display?) He says that until he sees it active he cannot decide if he wants 3 or 6 or 12 on a page. So I respond that I will be placing three pictures, because, as the designer - I provide the suggestion that I think will work the best. In some cases, I did not even have 3 pictures for that category, so I used repeated pictures. I'm sure you can guess that after he saw the layout he asked how he was going to display more than 3 pictures. It turns out that after he saw it with 3 pictures, he realized he would need to display many many more. I, of course, responded in a way that required him to pay more money for adding more pages to display more pictures (as our agreement does indicate a page limit), unless he wants his users to scroll on forever. I do not even have the 'many more' pictures yet.
And finally, after increasingly large intervals of silence between our communication, and his assurance that he will not 'rush' me, he suddenly needs to have it complete in one month, and I still don't have all of the content yet.
When I ask for it, he suggests another 'meeting' - I can't continue to have meetings to brainstorm - I can do that over the phone (It is over an hour for me to drive to his location and back, and I absolutely refuse to have clients to my private residence - which is where I work).
I have never worked with a client who can't figure out what they want on their web pages. I repeatedly suggest times that I am available for a call, but he makes no attempt to contact me during those times. (I did let him know up front that I had a limited availability).
Anyway - whether its deliberate or not - it's very difficult. I've found a way to respond to change requests, but how can I get him to figure out what he wants, when he won't communicate with me over the phone, and it is very inconvenient for me to travel to his location every time he has trouble visualizing.

Thanks,
Carrie



DebSpecs -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:04:12)

For one, it's great that you're charging him for extra pages. Are you also charging him for time? Sounds like you should.

I thought of a small suggestion that may not solve your troubles with your client, but may help- I work for a website that is too large for me to handle alone, so we hire outside programmers, and I act as the liason. The bosses can also be very indecisive until they see it on their monitor. So this amazing company we work with would find other people's sites, using them as an example. Once the bosses saw the examples, they started to get a clearer picture of what they wanted.

good luck with this case!
:)



Tailslide -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:23:50)

Oh yes this one gets around doesn't he?

Debs is right though - it's your time that he's eating up and you need to start charging him by the hour for anything over and above what you agreed.

What I tend to do now (through bitter experience) is to demand a decent deposit up front which will take care of the mockup and design stage. Once that stage is finished and a design is agreed they have to "sign off" that they're happy in writing (even just an email). Before I start actually building the rest of the site I need their content (or at least most of it). If they don't send it - I don't start. If they want to take 6 months staring at their navels then fine - I've basically been paid for what I've done already.

Once they start the Build process itself and supply the content then I can charge them extra for anything above and beyond what's been agreed so far (e.g. messing with the agreed layout) at my discretion. If they pull the disappearing trick or if they fail to either give me criticism to enable me to finish the site or generally agree that it's done within a reasonable time (say 21 or 30 days) then i have the right to bill them for the work done so far. And obviously they pay me the final money owed before the site goes live.

Also - if I get the idea that they're going to be one of exactly this type of client I'll bill them as I go along - basically taking more installments than just the deposit and final payments. I also build in dates to the contract to stop this sort of behaviour.

I think that you need to agree a few things with him now - firstly that you won't work on the site until you get all the content and until he signs off on the layout and content he's supplied. Once he's supplied the content and agreed the layout you'll be able to confirm the final cost and timescale. Without this you'll be working in the dark and at his mercy.

I'm telling you that there's not one of us that hasn't had a client like this one and not one of us who hasn't at some time fallen for their initial smiley-nice-laid-back-client act.



d a v e -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:29:38)

sounds like one of jaybee's clients... ;)

i had a kind of similar thing with a client who sort of knew what he wanted but we could never quite finalise things and in the end i got so fed up with him i laid down the law and said that enough was enough and they had to give me the direction to finish it in a certain time or they could fins someone else or i could help them find someone else to do it.

i could have quite easily lost the work but i didn't and i got paid for it. was it worth it? no it wasn't at all worth it for all the time and hassle and stress and it was partly my fault for not being clear enough and wanting to help them too much! ;)

personally i would have one final meeting - or email and phone him - and present him with an ultimatum with what he has to provide and any penalties for not providing them. set a date and stick to it and say that after that date you will do no more work, or then charge say 2x your rate for his defaulting on the contract (a bit like builders but the other way round ;)

be prepared to cut your losses but approach them in a way that listens to what they have to say, make sure they listen to what you have to say and see if there's some way to move forward. otherwise get paid for what you have done and say goodbye.

well that's my opinion and i'm intrigued to see what advice others might offer - particularly jaybee.



jaybee -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:29:57)

Tell me about it. I'm taking one of these through the courts right now.



d a v e -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:31:52)

blimey - 19 seconds after i posted!!!



carrie -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 16:42:05)

Wonderful replies, all of them, thank you so much.

I have had him sign off on the layout (first milestone). I consider myself paid up to date, with one more deposit to collect upon completion (but, of course, before a single byte of code goes onto his server)!
However, as far as the lengthy agreement that I should have had him sign, didn't happen. He signed my one-pager stating what I would do, and for how much, and it didn't really reference a time frame, or schedule.
Naturally, I felt a bit more relaxed because it was a referral from a good friend.
But, instead of regretting what I didn't do correctly, I need to focus on what I can do now. I am thankful for the experience, because it shows me exactly what to cover in the future.
Without the lengthy agreement, would it be considered 'legal' to implement a schedule now? Out of caution, I do not want to proceed in such a way that would make me liable for anything.

Thanks,
Carrie



Tailslide -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 17:38:25)

I guess it depends on what was in the original agreement as far as what you'd agreed to do, when and for how much.

If it specified less than you're doing now then I'd say you have grounds to append the contract with what is basically new work. If there was no time agreement in the original then he can't hold you to that or vice versa.



treetopsranch -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/4/2007 22:12:21)

Hmmm...I just did a site for a client using the barter system. New gates for the ranch in exchange for a 3 page website for his company. Well, you guessed it, the 3 pages actually turned out to be about 20 pages with a fancy flash gallery of sample fences. I am just too easy.



Rangler -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/5/2007 0:46:47)


Just curious.

Did the the new gates keep the Horses in and Bigfoot out? [:)]



jaybee -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/5/2007 5:46:37)

quote:

it was a referral from a good friend.

These are the ones that cause the most trouble. Believe me, for your sanity, make sure that you tie friend referrals down tighter than anybody else.



treetopsranch -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/5/2007 9:50:35)

Horses contained but BigFoot comes and goes.



carrie -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/5/2007 10:17:26)

Thanks jaybee,

That's great advice. I do need to have my agreement reviewed and condensed, and have everybody sign it, no matter what. I also need to develop schedules and timelines for my clients.
I did talk to this client since I posted this, and he insists he is unable to 'visualize' until he (or me) throws everything down on paper, or on screen and then rereads it or reevaluates it. He says he knows it is the long way around things, but I explained that it could also get quite costly. Surprisingly, I found, that by asking a series of questions regarding the purpose of the page, or how many pictures he feels he should have on the page, we were able to come up with a layout plan together. Unfortunately, I didn't plan on being on a call for over an hour last night, so now the concern again, is my time.
Sometimes I guess I tend to cater to everybody else's methods, but what I should be doing is implementing my own policy and not budge. Otherwise it's like I'm handing over the reigns.

Thanks again for all of your ideas. I'm sure this first time will be the last time I deal with this.

Carrie




jaybee -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (12/5/2007 11:03:41)

Don't bank on it, they still get you. Classic example here.

"A friend of mine is in a band and they want a web site doing". Ok says I, busy right now but I'll schedule it in and start looking at it in December. "Great!"

So, I put together a contract and ship it out. Back it comes, signed. Start date 3rd December, completion by Christmas bar additional work required.

New client turns up wants something fast. Sorry say I, can't start until January. OK says he, I'll go elsewhere.

I put a rough together for the site and a logo idea and phone the guy to set up a meeting. No answer, leave a voicemail.
Yesterday I call again, three times. No answer.
This morning I call again. Still no answer so I phone the friend.

"Can't get hold of band guy, have I got the right phone number?"

Oh, says he, didn't I tell you? No rush to start, he's in the US till mid January!!!!

NO YOU PIGGING DIDN'T TELL ME! WHAT THE FFFFFFFFFFFF. I cancelled another client to do this.

"Oooops"

[sm=BangHead.gif]

Because it's a friend, they just sign the contract, don't bother to read it first.



carrie -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (5/9/2008 9:43:50)

Hey there!

Still dealing with this client. He likes to use the trickle down method: 'Here's one picture, could you put it up on the web page so I can decide if I like it?'
Since we are about 2/3 of the way done, I suggested he send me the rest of the pictures, instead of just one at a time so we can review it all at once. I am, of course, expecting a resonse from him to the tune of, 'Well, i really can't move on and send you more pictures until I make sure these pages are ok.'
How would you [anyone] respond to that. I plan to stand firm, but if anyone's got some creative ideas, please share.

Thanks,
Carrie




BobbyDouglas -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (5/9/2008 12:13:14)

Let him know that you based your pricing on the fact that you are going to receive all of your information, and then put it online.

For example, when you take your vehicle in to get it serviced, they don't do half of the oil change, and then have you look at it, then finish it up later.

You need to tell him that he needs to pay for page revisions. Ask for a final version of each page, then tell him there will be a fee for each additional page.



carrie -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (5/13/2008 9:55:27)

Sure enough, got the response: 'Would you please put the pictures up I forwarded to you? It really helps me to know what I sent, what I need and where I need to go. That may sound petty but I really need to see that progression.'

I of course, responded by saying that I've done my best to accomodate his method, but that has caused a serious delay, and that we are going to have to use my method, of working with the content as a whole, etc., etc. I then provided the same outline that I send with every email that lists what is still needed.

I feel that maybe it would be best for him to work with a designer who works with the 'trial and error' approach, and I really feel that I should sever this relationship, have him sign off on what's done, hand over the html, and move on. I am doing everything I can to make it clear that I will not work without the rest of the content, but I am so tired of arguing!

Has anybody here ever gotten to that point? I would love to hear your stories. I also would like to know what I should be sure to cover if it gets to the point where we have to part ways.



barry -> RE: Client who can't figure out what content they want to use (5/13/2008 15:10:01)

Hi Carrie,

Some clients simply are not worth the time. I have had to walk away from messy clients simply because I can srew things up ALL by myself [:@] I really don't need help!

To walk away I have written them a professional letter and sent it certified mail. In the letter I explain my frustration, I let them know that they are not the typical experience, and that I have other clients, responcibilities and desires then servicing their web site.

I offer to supply all of the souce files, for thier new designer. I never do hosting resales because it can get really messy at this point. I have even refunded funds (simply to get them to leave me alone) [:'(] !!

Keep in mind that they may need an employee to do the site. I am fairly sure you would not become an employee for what you charged! Larger firms would have cut him loose or sent lots of invoices months ago.

By the way - I don't do "sites on demand" anymore simply because web design and managing a business are 2 totally different things!

B Free



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