Monitor can matter. (Full Version)

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jedidiah -> Monitor can matter. (12/9/2007 21:09:37)


Ok, I have Ubuntu 710, using Firefox on one pc, resolutions set to 1024 by 768.. and 15 inch monitor. The other pc, 1024 by 768 resolutions 15 inch monitor that schools both IE and Firefox. There is a difference in the fonts on Ubuntu Firefox, opposed to Firefox utilized in windows xp, I would think not but it proves to be the opposite. I have been messing around with the cells to see if width can make the difference. Its a toss up, unless you use a constricted form ( CSS or a template you are really challenged., oh well.

Sherri



Tailslide -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/10/2007 2:54:40)

When you say "difference in fonts" do you mean that - for instance it's showing up as Arial when you wanted Verdana (as an example)? If so then it may be that the font you specifiy doesn't exist on the other Operating system. Many fonts are OS-specific so you need to specify in your stylesheet which alternatives you want to ensure it looks ok on a PC, Linux and a Mac. The screen size has no effect on the font.

If you're talking about the text-size then that's something completely different and again isn't effected by the screen size although it can be effected by the Operating System (Macs tend to have smaller fonts by default).

If you're talking about things moving or not moving around the screen in the correct way when viewing with a wider screen then that may be to do with using absolute positioning (haven't checked if you have) which can "pin" pieces of the page in place and mean that when the page is widened the pieces move around unexpectedly (which is why I tend to avoid Absolute Positioning).




jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/12/2007 16:01:36)

Hey tailside, thanks on this. I changed most of my pages as I had a day off. It seems to be presentable enough and I have checked it in 3 of the most popular browsers and changing my own settings on a 19 inch monitor. Ya I changed my fonts as well, its my understanding just to stick with Time Romans, its a safe bet. I knocked out all the exact positioning and basically dulled the site down, for lack of knowledge due to not knowing HTML. Frontpage gives you and illusion that you can make your pages masterful, with all of its goodies, not so as we all know. Unless you create it or get it offline, its a no go, too bad none fo the word art and the other goodies present themselve per browser to be used, what a shame. That site Masterdiz.com, now thats a spiffy and interesting lay-out. Lots of goodies there.

Ok thanks alot.

Sherri



Tailslide -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 2:29:37)

Times New Roman isn't available on Macs (generally) so you'd need to specify an alternative with CSS to be sure of how the site looks across platforms.



d a v e -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 3:22:34)

you can find common fonts for win/mac here http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

also arial or verdana is easier to read on screen than times new roman ;)



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 4:52:42)

You really shouldn't use Times Roman on the web unless you understand Kerning and know how to adjust it to make it legible. Verdana, Arial and Tahoma are the safe bets with Helvetica for Macs and sans-serif as a fall back.



rdouglass -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 8:48:40)

quote:

You really shouldn't use Times Roman on the web unless you understand Kerning and know how to adjust it to make it legible. Verdana, Arial and Tahoma are the safe bets with Geneva for Macs and sans-serif as a fall back.


I have read many times that it's best to use sans-serif fonts on screen (web sites) and serif fonts save for print. Something about how the eye works that I cannot remember exactly but I always use sans-serifs on sites unless the page is designed to be printed.

I know nothing about kerning. [:D]

</$.02>



d a v e -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 9:18:34)

"You really shouldn't use Times Roman on the web unless you understand Kerning and know how to adjust it to make it legible. " huh i guess you're talking about images unless there's some other way of doing it ;) maybe a span over a letter pair with some increased/decreased letter-spacing... but that's pretty crude 'kerning'


the serifs (point, sticky-out bits) on times and other serif fonts makes it easier to recognise letter forms in print. on the web though the pixel resolution means that you've quite relatively large blocks (the pixels) in order to define the fine curve/path of a serif so it doesn't really work very well or look that great. hence made for the web faces like verdana.



Donkey -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 10:05:09)

I keep hearing that serif fonts are easier to read in print, that may be true if you are reading 8pt text or smaller in a paperback novel but I find that for 9 pt and above sans serif is much more legible and easier to read.

I also know nothing about kerning which I had assumed was a nautical term or some sort of cooking process. (e.g. "kerning 40 degrees to starboard captain" or "kern the pieces of bacon for 20 minutes at gas mark 4")



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 10:34:02)

There is a thing somewhere about using Times on the web and it can be very readable but you have to kern it to get decent spacing. I tried it on one site and it actually looks very classy but you're right, normally it's best used for print only.

http://www.3point7designs.com/blog/2007/05/09/css-typography-taking-back-times-new-roman/
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/



Tailslide -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/13/2007 11:04:18)

Serif is better for print and sans-serif is generally considered better for the main content text on the web.

I think it has to do with the fact that with the higher print quality the little tails and flourishy bits of serif fonts are very clear however with pixels on the web they tend to be a bit ragged and unclear or blurry (with font smoothing on) and therefore don't actually help distinguish the individual letter as they do on paper.

However, obviously for headings etc it doesn't matter at all.



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/15/2007 22:55:33)



Ok, sorry but this is getting silly, this is exactly what I am talking about, rather it is in Ubuntu forums or here or where, by the time all the opinions roll in no-one knows what the !@#$ to do, I mean I am sorry but what a joke. I read on the net to use New Times Roman serif, and heres what I think on the 800 by 600 resolution, if your still there, oh well then ( rott ) not to nice of me but come on and up-date already or get what it is out there offered, my goodness, who cares. So FP is a joke and any other offer to ( hey here is a way to do it un-professionally ) its all stupid and un-necessary, I mean either do what the program offers or jump in the lake, ( gracious what a joke of it all ).

sherri



Tailslide -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 3:26:30)

Sorry - couldn't understand any of that...



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 6:13:10)

quote:

by the time all the opinions roll in no-one knows what the !@#$ to do
No Sherri it's not stupid and we do know what to do. You asked about using Times. We're just saying that yes you can use it but it needs to be used properly if it's on a web page. You use whatever styles are commonly available but if you use the fonts that are not recommended normally for screen use then you have to learn about kerning and apply it to make them more readable.

It's all a matter of choice and design. Some people like red others hate it. The people who like red will tell you to use red. On the Ubuntu forums there will be people who think it's OK to use Times all over their web sites but are they professional web devs or are they Ubuntu people who play at web sites?

You can't blame FP. It's down to you which fonts you choose and it's your responsibility to make sure they are readable. There comes a point where button pushing isn't enough and you have to learn to get your hands dirty.

There are lots of developers on here who produce very good sites using FP but all of them will tell you they have learned HTML and they use the code tab a lot of the time when building their sites and they've changed FP default settings.

If you use any WYSIWYG editor without learning what makes it tick then what comes out the other end is a web page but it's a bargain basement plastic page. If you want gold plated then you have to invest the time and the knowledge to create gold plated.

You could go out and get yourself the most expensive piece of web building software available but if all you do is push buttons without knowing why you're pushing them and what the impact of pushing them is, then you'll always produce the plastic site.

Why do you think there are so many of us around who charge good money for building sites? It's because we've spent a lot of time learning how to do it properly. If everyone could buy FP, push a few buttons and produce Amazon.com then we'd all be out of work.



d a v e -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 6:27:33)

"I read on the net to use New Times Roman serif," well this goes against the consensus of most web professionals for most web sites. as always with the net there is a glut of info and not all (most?!) is trustworthy. as with any source of info you have to make up your own mind as to what is reliable information. but as far as good readable screen fonts go then sans-serif ones like verdana etc are the way to go unless

a) there's a particular reason to use a serif font - like wanting the perceived weight if a Print typeface like Times (the authority of the printed word;)
b) you know how to use such a font with some letter spacing and a reasonable font size (not too small) and some line-height (spacing between lines)
for a site such as your and for most you should stick to sans-serif fonts

as far as screen resolution goes - if you had a store that was a pain to visit for even 5% percent of people and you could fix it ok so they could visit wouldn't you fo that?
ok it's a bit annoying having to still cater for those using 800x600 (but far more annoying having to cater for IE6 :) but why shouldn't you?!

and if you don't want top then heck, just don't then but one of the quickest ways for people to leave your site is if they have to scroll horizontally ;)

maybe you need to reconsider how you have put your site together and keep it simple so it's nice to look at and nice to work with ;) but it's your site and it's up to you



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 12:01:43)

Hey everyone, well I indeed agree with the last 2 submissions, but please understand I was under the illusion that FP offered the goodies to the ignornant such as myself not learned in HTML. Nor have the time. I have spent many hours trying to get it right only to find its not, again and again. I have recently changed many of the pages and knocked out word art completely, this sans serif I have not looked into, just found on the net to use times serif, so that is where I started. I have viewed net pages in their scource to see if I can identify and learn something right like cell spacing and trying to comply with 800 by 600, and seems no matter what I do it doesnt cut it, so ya, it will only appease a larger screen for the most part, some not all. I dont understand CSS at all and preferr not to start a new venture at this time as I have other needs to tend to. I just dont see where FP sais oh, dont use this ( word art ) and dont use that ( decor Font ) and oh here is the web browsers to examine your pages when your through and there are many...only to find that too is an illusion, so to me...shame on FP for doing that to poeple. Of course the webmasters create all the cool pages, they know what they are doing, goodness, who can afford them, not me, so hubby bought FP. I had so much fun desiging, only to find none of it was any good, I am talking about the word art, and font. The other implications following the wrong building of the site in itself is totally my fault. I keep trying to correct that and everything I do...comes down to the same thing...its wrong. Well that is, again, appeases some browsers not all.

(sigh) just me and the way I see it. I think anyone who can create a masterpiece where there was none is amazing, my hats off to those who know, ( BIG-TIME ).

Sherri



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 12:23:13)

Thing is Sherri, Microsoft developed FP for home users who wanted to put together a hobby site, not a business one. The technology is now very very old and the web has moved on. When it first came out it was state of the art but that was years ago and everyone, including MS has learned a lot since then. MS have dropped FP as their development tool. ExpressionWeb is now the thing to use and it produces decent sites out of the box, certainly way better than FP, just by pushing buttons.

It's a bit like saying you have a Model T Ford and you want to race it at Daytona. Yes it's a car and it was state of the art at the time but these days it just doesn't cut it.... unless, you pull the thing apart and insert a new engine, new suspension etc. i.e. you learn what's under the bonnet and then change it to get the thing working how you need it.

If your site is purely a hobby and you're reasonably happy with it then fine. Go with it. But if you come on a web developer forum and start asking about improvements, the professionals will give you their opinions but those opinions start from a way higher point than you are at. You need to decide where you want to be. If you want a professional site we can help you do that but it means work on your part. If you want a hobby site then you have one so don't panic the big stuff. If there is something you're really not happy with, or it's broken, or you get complaints then ask for help with that specific point but don't try to produce what could go on and on and on, because believe me, some people have been coming here for years trying to tweak their sites. [:D]



d a v e -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 13:34:07)

by the way don't think that we don't sympathise with you [;)] at least your trying to make it better ;)



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 16:21:34)

Well, thank you. Actually I was hoping to make the site of professional content, because I visit un-solicated museums in order to possibley have a chance at a display for my art, ( Jedidiah's Arts ). That was the main reason behind the purchase of FP, the other was just the added familiararities of life. So when I pass out my cards for Curators to possibley visit, well thats when I started sweating bullets, thinking...what are they really seeing, if my site blows, well my chances now are null to ever get a call, so yes the pro look was what I was going for. I even thought of purchasing a website already built, about $350. but I can never change the site in itself, just the graphics and there is no extended help. I had it saved in my favorites but decided against it, wasnt for sure how secure it was. I will look for the link and send it to see the thoughts if this is ok. I was recommended to purchase a program called ( Content Management Systems, but goodness its $1,000 and that would take me forever to save for, cant in this time. So ya I came in here in hopes to finally fine the cure for the proper look of a website through variations of web browsers, I keep trying to fix it and it only actually appeals in the top 3 browsers, heck I dont know aout resolution wise, I only know its presentable in 1024 by 768, everything esle is a guess. This is the quagmire I exist in with FP.

Sherri



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 16:36:01)

Well to be honest with you Sherri, if you want a professional site for curators you're going to have to remove all that other stuff you have on there. Business sites just don't cut it when people have to go through family photos, religious beliefs etc. Stick to the point.

There are options which might help you out. You can get your own blog for free at www.wordpress.com

You sign up, pick a template and then add stuff via the control panel. You could have a separate post for each piece of art and write a comment underneath for each one. You don't need FP or anything else and you don't need to learn about web design, layout or anything else, just make sure you pick a good template.

As you get more familiar with it you could then look at hosting your own Wordpress site and make use of all the additional features that allows.



d a v e -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 16:50:11)

blimey i didn't even realise that it was professional site for curators! first impressions certainly wouldn't tell you that

i did an art site for a friend if this might give you some idea of a direction (for a kind of web layout i mean)
it's just a minimalistic site that is plain in order to let the art have its own voice
http://koti.mbnet.fi/haleimu/index.htm

the nice looking slideshow (which you might have seen elsewhere on the net) is this
http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 17:10:19)


Well, again thank you on this, and you are right...I just decided to throw the extra in there, but maybe like you say would be at best and free so I can argue with that. I have looked through many templates and in generall websites to purchase before buying another developer, that would be best for someone like me. This is a good idea what you say here thank you I sure appreciate it all.


Sherri



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 17:15:20)

Wow Dave that's nice! Strangely I'm just quoting for an artist. See you later I'm off to download this new template I've just found. [:D]



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 17:25:39)


Hey, I did download that CSS, but again that is foriegn to me, it shows up in FP, but I cant insert anything into it or use FP for that CSS at all. Well that be another adventure for me, ya more challenges, keeps you young I guess, NOTTT, makes my blood pressure rise, he-he.

Sherri



jaybee -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/16/2007 17:29:01)

Sherri, here are some Artist blogs to give you an idea

http://arteccentrix.wordpress.com/

http://mosaicartsource.wordpress.com/

http://fotokew.wordpress.com/

http://chrysti.wordpress.com/



jedidiah -> RE: Monitor can matter. (12/18/2007 21:45:41)


Hey Jaybee, incredible stuff, the are is amazing I love it, thanks for the links and the idea, I appreciate it.

Sherri



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