I can take it! (Full Version)

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Dutch -> I can take it! (12/21/2007 15:20:08)

For background, I have no training in web design. I've learned by trial and error over the last 2 months. I've also read about 16,984 tutorials and articles on just about everything web related. This site was constructed using a blank page with Coffeecup. The honest feedback from seasoned designers and developers would be very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to look.

DDR Computer Co.



d a v e -> RE: I can take it! (12/21/2007 15:34:02)

i'm not sure where to start but i thought this was funny
'this section [links page] of the site is currently under reconstruction and may cause viewing errors. Thank you for your patients while this site is improved and update'



rdouglass -> RE: I can take it! (12/21/2007 16:46:38)

quote:

I've also read about 16,984 tutorials


Spent too much time reading. [;)]

Sorry, couldn't resist. [;)] Hi and Welcome to OutFront.

I get a "Page Cannot Be Displayed".



Tailslide -> RE: I can take it! (12/22/2007 3:26:33)

Try reading it without the images on - you get a Good Morning text and a google ad and that's it! You should ensure that important text (and by that I mean your content) is actual text rather than images. This is for many reasons:

1. Google can't read text within images and so this will harm your search engine results.
2. I can't resize the text in images when it's too small to read.
3. People using screenreaders won't get anything at all and will go elsewhere.
4. People using PDAs won't get much that's useful either.

Sorry to sound so critical!



jaybee -> RE: I can take it! (12/22/2007 4:06:10)

Hi, don't want to sound cruel but hardware is your forte, not software. You've made that basic beginner's mistake of putting everything in as a graphic. Apart from making it really difficult to update the text when you need to, there are all the issues Tailslide mentioned above.

The site text is almost unreadable on my Mac. The page is too wide and I'm side scrolling. More important is that EU law on accessible web sites. If you are offering a business web site it must pass level 1 of the WAI checks and yours doesn't hit any of the checkpoints.

Ummm and as for "use the red buttons to navigate the site" do you honestly think your visitors are so stupid they need to be told that?



treetopsranch -> RE: I can take it! (12/22/2007 6:39:05)

Too much horizontal scrolling and that bright red is hard on my tired old eyes.



Dutch -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 13:12:12)

Good Morning,

Thanks to those of you who offered "constructive" feedback. I've taken your advice and implemented some changes.

The WAI checks have proved difficult. After the changes, I was able to pass level 1, but not by much. From what I've read here, my site isn't required to pass these checks, as I have no employees with disabilities who need to access my site as part of their job. I would however like the site to be fully accessible to everyone, so I'll continue working on this.

I don't like to offend tired, old eyes so I changed the colors and reduced the amount of graphics. I took as much text as I could out of the graphics and changed it to "regular text" with all Unicode fonts.

As far as horizontal scrolling goes, well.........I used a regular 15" monitor on one of my other computers and tested the site using all available screen resolutions. The only time the site needed scrolling, was at 800x600 resolution, or below. To test further, I asked a few "test rats" to change resolutions and report back with scrolling intel. All reports were the same, scrolling only occurs at resolutions of 800x600 or below. Please tell me you're not judging websites using an ancient screen resolution. I just don't think it's fair to complain about scrolling while using such a low resolution. Heck, you should be used to it! [;)]

quote:

Ummm and as for "use the red buttons to navigate the site" do you honestly think your visitors are so stupid they need to be told that?


Stupid? Not at all. But I know several of my customers personally, which means I know their skill level. I've got about 10 emails about not being able to join the forums because they can't find out what their AIM, YID, or time zone are. I got gas in the car at Speedway today. There were several rules and instructions on the pump about what not to do and so on. Does that mean Speedway thinks I'm stupid? Those scoundrels! [:D]

You see improvement? DDR Computer Co.

Oh, and for reference:


quote:

ORIGINAL: d a v e

i'm not sure where to start but i thought this was funny
'this section [links page] of the site is currently under reconstruction and may cause viewing errors. Thank you for your patients while this site is improved and update'


Incorrectly spelled offending content removed and page finished. To search for additional jokes, please visit DDR Computer Co. Thanks again for your expert input![;)]



jaybee -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 14:27:15)

You asked for the low down and you said you could take it so we took you at your word.

quote:

I have no employees with disabilities who need to access my site as part of their job.

It's not your employees that are the problem, it's your visitors. Your employees know what you do, your visitors need to access the site to find out, if they can't then you've lost a customer.

quote:

Please tell me you're not judging websites using an ancient screen resolution.

What gives you the idea that it's ancient? I know many people with brand new kit who set the res to 800x600 so that they can read the text on sites. That's one of the reasons why we make sites fluid so that text can be resized but until the browsers all handle it automatically or developers allow text resize people will keep using 800x600.

quote:

Does that mean Speedway thinks I'm stupid?
No, it means the gas pumps are a lot more complicated than a few BIG red buttons on your site which are clearly labelled.

Spelling is vital, if you can't get that right then people don't take you or your business seriously. Always run a spell checker.

Now it may be down to the time of year and people being online but that page just took ages to load and I'm on just about the fastest Broadband you can get. It's the images that are doing it. I ran it through the Speed Checker and it came back saying:

quote:

Warning! The total size of this page is 556796 bytes, which will load in 121.57 seconds on a 56Kbps modem.


Here's the link so you can see the breakdown of what is too big and causing the load problems.




womble -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 16:39:03)

I'm still not getting an awful lot of anything with images off - including navigation, which just disappears. As for WAI Priority 1, it doesn't look like you're anywhere near it - one of the checkpoints that springs to mind immediately is the lack of "alt attributes on your site. On your "NewPC" page (not that I'd know I was on the "NewPC" page because there's no indication of which page you're on - no hover or selected effect on the navigation, and no clue as to where I am in the structure of the site) you have a lot of text that's spilling out of it's boxes (again, that's because there's no fluidity in your design).

Visually, it looks good (though personally I'd centre the page), but under the hood you've a hell of a lot of problems going on there. My suggestion would be to get yourself off to Amazon and get a copy of The Principles of Web Design by Joe Sklar, which is aimed at complete novices and walks you through not only what's good design-wise, and the important principles of design, but what's good technically. The second book I'd recommend is Steve Krug's Don't make me think: a common sense guide to web usability which is an excellent book that anyone interested in web design should read. It's got loads of examples of what makes a good website that's easy for visitors to use and navigation structures that work - based on real world usability testing.

At the moment you've got navigation up the top, more a bit further down....and then a bit more, some forums, a bit further down from that. What's that make the customer think? They don't know where to look to find the button they want. It's not intuitive, it's making them think, and as Steve Krug tells us from real world testing and well known sites, the ones that work best are the ones that don't have us fumbling around, scratching our heads trying to find the right bit of navigation.

Forum - okay. Why do you have a forum on a business site? More to the point, why do you have a forum with only 4 members and 20 posts on a business site? Nothing will put customers off more than an almost empty forum. Online communities, which is what forums are, don't happen overnight, and are best not linked with a business site, or if they are, they need to be good and busy. Is the forum the best and most professional way to provide support? Would a knowledgebase be more effective, or maybe just a plain old contact form. Think like a customer (and I admit, I'm a very cynical customer). Customer comes along and thinks, "Hmmmmm, a support forum...."...gets to the forum and thinks either, a) why does this guy have an empty forum, he obviously has no customers, or b) why's this guy got a forum with a few of his mates asking staged questions trying to look like they're customers? Obviously I've no idea if they're real customers or not, but your cynical customer who's wondering (albeit maybe not consciously) why your site's full of ads, is gonna be wondering that and thinking maybe that other guy's site just down the road looks a bit more professional.

From the forums:
quote:

This site, like every other site, is best viewed with FireFox. I've been testing updated pages with Internet Explorer 7 and have most of the bugs worked out. If you have a funny looking page, try refreshing the page. If that doesn't help, I'm probably working on it.


At least you didn't say that on the main site! Never tell a visitor what browser they should be using - that's their choice, and forcing them to use a different browser to get the best from your site isn't good business practice. Your site should be tested and working on all the commonly used browsers, before you launch it, and if you're going to be working on pages, never work on them live - keep the original pages up and work on new versions in a test folder, not the ones customers are seeing. In a bricks and mortar store would you make major alterations to the structure of the building while you were open for business? I can see it now - you're having a new roof put on your store and you issue your customers with an umbrella as they walk through the door so they don't get wet if it rains and any falling masonary'll hopefully bounce off the umbrella! You wouldn't do it in a bricks and mortar store, so don't do it online!

And lastly - lose all the ads and the hit counter. On a business site it just doesn't look professional.



Dutch -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 17:01:22)

I can take it, jaybee, and keep it coming. Your input has been valuable and I appreciate it. The first two "third grade" replies may have put me a bit on the defensive. I'll read up on how to make the site fluid, even though I've apparently exceeded my reading limit.[;)]



Dutch -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 19:11:48)

womble,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be helpful and informative. Replies like this are exactly what I was looking for.

This site is a test site. It's hosted on a free server. I didn't intend on getting any business from the site until it's moved to it's proper domain and host. I asked a couple guys on a local forum to give the site a look and that generated 3 new customers, one of which is a new system build, my favorite. Empty forums are a turnoff, I agree, but I haven't told many people about this site yet. Most of those I've told, can't complete the registration. The few that did are not staged, they own machines that I built or brought back to life. Dbeau's comments were edited, which led me to add some words to the naughty filter. Over time the forum section will grow and it will be very useful. The gaming section will have it's own site, as well.

I've been building and repairing computers for a long time and have a solid word of mouth base already. I'm not really looking specifically for random business, but somewhere to direct all that word of mouth traffic. The majority of the visitors to my site will already know me, know someone who knows me, or be from my area.

I see your point on the navigation, and I can make those changes.

Coffeecup Visual Designer seems to render everything as a graphic. I want badly to pass those WAI tests, and if I use Coffeecup to build a site, I won't be able to. I was under the impression that the software I was using was correctly handling all that stuff in the back end. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to fix all that. Know of any Coffeecup sites that work correctly?

Back to work......thanks again!





jaybee -> RE: I can take it! (12/29/2007 22:04:52)

LOL! You are doing your first site and you're unsurprisingly pretty chuffed with it, then you come ask us. If it had been a hobby site then we'd have probably said, well done, tweak this, adjust that, but it's a business site and that's a whole different ball game. Business sites are what we do.

I really must find out if I can get royalties for pushing this book but I personally believe it's one of the best for teaching you as you go. You end up with a fully functioning site at the end and you should have the knowledge to alter it.

Build your own site the right way using HTML and CSS and yes you can use Coffee Cup to do it but you won't be pushing buttons. [;)] You could also use Notepad but it'd probably scare you rigid as there are no comforting buttons. There's a freebie you can download which will do everything you're likely to need, HTMLKit.



jaybee -> RE: I can take it! (12/30/2007 5:48:33)

Oh and I keep forgetting I wrote this specifically for these occasions.

How not to build web sites



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