I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (Full Version)

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vitalcoaching -> I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 8:59:55)

I want to start publishing my site without using the frontpage extensions. (far too many errors, time out message, too many issues that would be too long to explain or solve here, etc)

The last element that needs extensions in my site right now is the "page include" feature (I think).

Is there a way to get the same result (including standard content on multiple pages) using another feature?

(shared borders is not an option as they require the extensions as well...)

Again, my first goal is to be able to FTP the site rather than use the frontpage extensions

My site is now around 3000 pages

I need serious help on that one. Any ideas?

Thanks!!!



jaybee -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 9:25:06)

Absolutely possible. I use includes on all the sites I build. I use PHP but you can use Server Side Includes as well. This site has its own tutorials, reached from the thin blue bar at the very top of the page. This is the relevant one for you

http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/getting_started/includes2.htm



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 10:09:00)

And don't forget that FP Includes don't require extensions to work, I use them on a site without extensions.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 10:13:13)

Thanks for the idea jaybee.

I tried with SSI and it works.

However... I have a problem with this.

All 3000 pages on my site are already .htm

That's all the internal links, all the search engine listings, all the traffic I get to my pages right now is directed to .htm pages

Is there way to use these .htm pages using a similar technique?

(It says in the tutorial that pages need to be named .shtml)

and no... I don't have dedicated server

thanks again! Really appreciated

PS: if you want to have a look, my site is at http://vitalcoaching.com



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 10:29:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caz

And don't forget that FP Includes don't require extensions to work, I use them on a site without extensions.


caz? Is this true? When I simply FTP a page which contains includes, the published result appears without the included areas... (most of the times) Am I doing something wrong?

As well, If I modify the include and simply republish it, the changes won't show in the pages where the include is supposed to appear...

Here is an example when I FTP a page:

http://vitalcoaching.com/allareas/formats_4.htm

Here is what it should look like with all the includes:

http://vitalcoaching.com/allareas/formats.htm

PS: this does not happen all the time... Not sure what the issue is. I thought it happened because the page needed to be published using the FP extension

Can you tell me exactly how it works?

I don't get it

Thanks for following up! Appreaciated!



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 11:02:51)

Make sure that all your paths are correct and you may have to re FTP the pages that contain the includes and the included content as well. I have to admit that I haven't done this as a retrofit of an existing site on any great scale. Whichever way you go it will likely be a big job on your site. But yes, FP Includes do not need extensions.

PS. Don't forget to refresh the remote site after FTPing.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 11:11:45)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caz

But yes, FP Includes do not need extensions.

PS. Don't forget to refresh the remote site after FTPing.


Well, at least I am glad to hear that! Thanks for your answer appraciated!

quote:


PS. Don't forget to refresh the remote site after FTPing.


Do you mean in the IE browser? on the FTP program? What do you mean?



BobbyDouglas -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 11:19:58)

You have more functionality if you use php includes instead of ssi includes. If all you care about is including a file then you will be fine with just the ssi includes.

quote:

Is there way to use these .htm pages using a similar technique?

- You can name all of your pages .php and then use mod rewrite to make them appear as if they were really .htm

You also may be able to run php as cgi, and actually have the htm files run as php files too.

You can put this code inside your .htaccess file located in your website's directory (such as public_html or www).
quote:

Options +FollowSymlinks
RewriteEngine On
RewriteBase /
RewriteRule ^(.*)\.php $1.htm [L]


I haven't tested the code, but it should work. Make sure you test it before you leave it on your website. Incorrect .htaccess code can make your website not display at all.



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 11:23:57)

On your FTP program, of course you should refresh your browser too as a matter of course [:D]



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 12:27:21)

Thanks for your input Bobby.

A bit complicate for me at this stage [;)] but I'll certainly keep it in mind.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 12:39:14)

Francisco,

FrontPage includes are handled during the publish stage of things (either publish via FPSE or FTP). So if you have a single include file that needs to be updated, and you have 100 pages that use it, you have to publish all 100 pages. Whereas if you used SSI/PHP includes, you update the included page and it updates every page that uses it.

Sticking with FP Includes will be easier for the short term. So as long as it works the way you want it to, then it probably is much easier just to stick with that.

You can use the mod rewrite stuff for shtml pages too. The idea of mod rewrite, is that you won't have to update 3000 pages worth of links. You will need to change the extension from .htm to .shtml, insert the code into a .htaccess file, and be done with it (hopefully, unless this untested code causes problems).



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 13:12:14)

thanks for clarifying that Bobby, appreciated



coreybryant -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 14:52:40)

As I said over at I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible and probably has already been dealt with on this thread as well.

FrontPage Includes will tell you that Frontpage page includes are not dependent on FPSE. And Publishing From Remote Server to Local Computer will show you the bots that are dependent on FPSE.

For the included content, I would recommend server side includes. However this might require you to change your file extension from html to shtml, unless your server admin can set it up to parse html as shtml.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 16:40:38)

thanks Corey - Glad you took the time to share that. Appreciated



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 17:13:19)

I experimented with publishing with FTP today but I am still facing a couple of key problems.

------------------------

CHALLENGE 1

When I try to save a file now with frontpage I systematically get an error message which says:

quote:

An error occured accessing your frontpage web files. Authors - if authoring against a web server, please contact the webmaster for this server's site...


I am editing a page on my computer not online live on the site. Is there something I need to reset? what's going on?

------------------------

CHALLENGE 2

When I go to my FTP and try to republish a page with includes in it. The page reads for instance 6K instead of the 70K is should be with the includes. The page which is already published is effectively 70K. I see that on my right FTP window

If I republish this 6K page, I effectively get my published page but it does not show the included areas.

This happens even if I republish the included areas as well.

Here is the example I already mentioned earlier

How it appears when I republish

http://vitalcoaching.com/allareas/formats_4.htm

How it should look like

http://vitalcoaching.com/allareas/formats.htm

------------------------

Any idea how I can solve this?

Thanks for following up by the way! Your help is really appreacited!

PS: I will think about including with SSI, it seems like a major undertaking for my site though. If I can do without it and keep the simple strutrure I have right now, I would prefer but of course, I can shift if using the FP includes no longer works



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 20:05:53)

First of all, which version of FP are you using? Second, using FTP are you using the built in FP ftp method, or a standalone ftp program?

When you are not using extensions you can no longer "publish", instead you upload your files to your host. I use Filezilla to ftp and when this is set up for your site you have one window showing the files and directories of your local site and the other shows the directories and files on the host's server. You then drag the files to be uploaded across from the local area to the remote area windows; make sure that they are going into the /public_html/ area of the remote server. ( Apologies if you are already familiar with ftp methods.)

A good look at Corey's links should help you out here.

I have no idea what is happening with your "Challenge 1" and can only suggest that you do the repair option in Help and/or use FP Cleaner to clear out the hidden cache files.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/27/2008 21:41:46)

quote:

When you are not using extensions you can no longer "publish", instead you upload your files to your host. I use Filezilla to ftp and when this is set up for your site you have one window showing the files and directories of your local site and the other shows the directories and files on the host's server.

- I believe you need to use FP's built in FTP program in order for the includes to work. FrontPage automatically includes the files during the FP FTP publish, well it is supposed to [:D]

Are you going to File > Publish? Or are you right-clicking on the files and selecting to publish the specific files only?



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 5:29:48)

Really Bobby? I have never used the Frontpage built in FTP.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 5:51:41)

Caz, Thanks for your answer!

I use FP 2002

Yes, I am familiar with the with working with FTP and have been using it for years to publish MP3's, videos, etc. to my site. I used it occasionally to FTP htm pages but usually encountered the type of issue I just decribed.

I use cuteFTP which is probably similar to the Filezilla you use.

I'll check the FP cleaner. Yes! This could be the issue with the error I get when saving files.

I'll give it a try and post back if I have any trouble...

Thanks again! Your answers are truly appreciated!



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 6:09:28)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas
Are you going to File > Publish? Or are you right-clicking on the files and selecting to publish the specific files only?


Hi Bobby, I have always been using "File > Publish" to publish my changed files. I usually select the file(s) I want to publish and simply drag it (them) from the left window to the right in the specific folder.

Occasionally, I selected to republish the whole site but this usually resulted in repeated "time out" errors. I got there eventually but with 3000 pages, it took me a few hours to republish the whole site. I did that when changing major elements in the navigation structure.

In the last couple of months, though. This method is no longer functioning properly. I get "time out" errors within a minute and the publishing/FTPing of a simple page keeps on going until I get the time out error.

(I get the feeling that when I use this method, I am actually using the FP extensions not just FTPing pages, though...)

This is why I wanted to shift totally and use my external FTP program (cuteFTP) to upload my pages...

But Bobby, you now say that you believe that for the FP includes to work, you need to publish them from within FP? That's precisely what I am trying to find out...

Thanks again for your precious insights! Appreciated!






Larry M. -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 6:34:07)

quote:

I usually select the file(s) I want to publish and simply drag it (them) from the left window to the right in the specific folder


This isn't "publishing" and doubtless has contributed to or may be the sole cause of all your problems. The >>File >>Publish Site proprietary command must to be followed by Publish Web Site in order for FrontPage to properly allocate changes. Not doing so has probably corrupted the site FrontPage Extensions and the site navigation structure.

I've followed this thread without comment up to this point but have wondered all along why in the world - especially with 3000 pages - you would put yourself through so much trouble to "convert" to another publishing method when FrontPage will work properly if used properly.

Tom Brunt, our OutFront sponsor, continues to support FrontPage/FrontPage extensions. I suggest you get in touch with him for a consult.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 7:45:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry M.
why in the world - especially with 3000 pages - you would put yourself through so much trouble to "convert" to another publishing method when FrontPage will work properly if used properly.


Hi Larry, thanks for stepping in [;)]

The reason why I was publishing just the selected pages rather than the whole site is because I do edit pages in my site very frequently. Sometimes 10 or 20 times a day. I edit articles, edits sales pages, etc.

Republishing the whole site every time or even once a day or once a week takes a few hours each time and I get repeated "time out" messages which I was told is normal with big front page sites.

I did not realize that uploading or FTPing pages that way was not an "official" way of publishing pages... It has been working smoothly for me for 3 years though...

Does everyone else think that way?

Thanks for sharing! I appreciate your input and will certainly consider your suggestion



jaybee -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 8:04:24)

FTP usually corrupts the FPSEs. Not a problem if nothing in your site requires FPSE. Years ago I had a large site built with FP that I never used Publish on. I had a separate FTP package and uploaded with that.

As long as you understand about all the additional FP hidden folders which also need to be uploaded then it's OK.

Having said that, you shouldn't need to republish the whole site, you can just republish changed files.

Personally in your case if I could get rid of the need for FPSE then I would. MS no longer support them, many hosts have dumped them so you're futureproofing your site.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 8:17:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
FTP usually corrupts the FPSEs.


Does it mean that if I disable/re enable them on my hosting panel, I could probably get rid of whatever "corruption" has been building up? Would you recommend doing that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
As long as you understand about all the additional FP hidden folders which also need to be uploaded then it's OK.


Do you mean the _vti folders?

Or do you mean other folders?

What should I know about these "hidden" folders?

I was just checking a comment on the outfront faq which says:

quote:

What is the purpose of the _vti folders FP puts in my web? Can I delete them?

These are required files if you are using FrontPage extensions. They are updated when you save a file to your FrontPage web, when you move a file, every time you publish and every time you import or export a file or folder to or from your web.

If you are not using FP extensions they have no function and you can delete them.


Are you saying you still need to FTP these?

Anything about these hidden folders I should know?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaybee
Personally in your case if I could get rid of the need for FPSE then I would. MS no longer support them, many hosts have dumped them so you're futureproofing your site.


That was precisely my idea: Futureproofing my site! You just summarized it perfectly!

Whaou! The whole list of comments and advices you posted so far are precious to me!

Again, thanks for all who shared! Warmly appreciated!




caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 9:21:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vitalcoaching

I did not realize that uploading or FTPing pages that way was not an "official" way of publishing pages... It has been working smoothly for me for 3 years though...

Does everyone else think that way?



Yes.
As far as the FP 'hidden' folders and _vti stuff is concerned you should really leave them alone. At this stage we have found that you haven't been Publishing, but FTPing here and there so the odds are that your extensions are corrupted and that is why you are getting all the hassle. If you can uninstall then reinstall the fpse via your cp then do so. You will then have to Recalculate the Web on the server - not hyperlinks btw, this is different although you should also do that as well afterwards.

If this doesn't work then you would have to delete the whole site and republish it - unless your host can help you out. It seems to me that all these problems are the result of not Publishing properly all this time. It says a lot for the resilience of FP that only now are you having problems [:D]
I think that you should get your site working efficiently before you decide on alternatives like SSI and/or PHP Includes and take it from there.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 9:29:47)

Thanks for that Caz.

It's much clearer now!



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 10:47:20)

PS: quick update

About the errors I was getting that i mentioned earlier...

quote:

CHALLENGE 1

When I try to save a file now with frontpage I systematically get an error message



For this error I was getting when trying to save a page, I did try FP cleaner which did not solve the issue.

I created a new web with frontpage and copied all my files except the _vti, private and borders folders. This seems to work. I was now able to save a page without getting the error I was getting.

-------------

For another key issue

quote:

"Time out" errors after a minute when trying to upload a page


I followed caz advice and installed/uninstalled the FP extensions. This seems to solve that specific issue for now...

I have a full backup of my previous site version in case I need to reverse these changes.

I still did not try to republish the whole site, yet...

...And I'll certainly keep in mind that FTPing pages might corrupt the FP extensions

Thanks again for your valuable help with this! Truly appreciated!



Larry M. -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 11:01:44)

quote:

Hi Tom, thanks for stepping in


I'm Larry, not Tom. You should contact Tom if your, as I read them, self-inflicted problems continue. It looks like Caz & Jaybee, who are the real experts here, have you on the right track. BUT you need to pay very close attention as I sense your site is in the process of circling the drain, so-to-speak (dying [:(]).

quote:

It has been working smoothly for me for 3 years though...
Yeah, right [:'(] Problems like these are cumlative. You are experiencing the fall-out from years of ultimately bad site management.



vitalcoaching -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 13:54:37)

Caz, you said earlier

quote:

You will then have to Recalculate the Web on the server


How does that work?

How do I do that?

Thanks!



caz -> RE: I want to stop using frontpage extensions - Is it possible? (2/28/2008 14:02:01)

As I said when you are in FP live on the server, or in your cp - if your host has enabled it for you. Otherwise you will have to contact your host and ask them to do it and with a site as large as yours it could take a very long time.
quote:

FTPing pages might corrupt the FP extensions

In your case I would say will fry your extensions. [;)]

No expert Larry - just experience (when the memory works!).



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