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Winxmaster
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FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 8/28/2008 5:24:16
I just built a new website with FP2002 (my first one and unpublished as of yet) for my Real Estate business. The program had been sitting on my computer since, well 2002, and this is the first time I needed to build a site. I learned the program and spent about 2 months building a site that looks good on my computer when viewed on all of the major browsers. I created 18 unique page templets to use within the site, which has 82 pages plus a 5 page form (my hair is much grayer now).
This is what now concernes me. A fellow agent who is web wise (I think) told me that FP2002 puts a lot of usless code in your website HTML when it produces your pages and that I could face many site problems when I publish the site. We were all issued EW a short time ago and I need to know if I need to completely remake the site with it?
If you say yes a grown man is going to cry. But I will do it if necessary.
If bloated code is in my current site are there any tools to help remove it? Do you think the FP2002 site will work.
Thanks
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Captain America
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/3/2008 20:28:53
Winxmaster,
Here is some good news for you. Yes you can use Expression to build great websites using tables. For the people who are moving up from previous FrontPage programs the people who created Expressions have also made it easy to use layout tables for your new website. They even have started you out with some sample table layout templates for you to use. You can use them, as is, or find the closest matching template and tweak it for your own use.
As a web designer myself I know the “web coding purist” will tell you that tables are for “data placement only”. Sometimes I also think that they believe that if anyone uses tables for anything else other than that they should be tickled silly with a rubber chicken. ;-D
But that isn’t always true. Heck, balloons were only meant to hold air but that never stopped me from filling them with water and dropping them on a few heads. Great fun that! (Of course that was years ago) Really!
While browser now, mostly, recognize all aspects of CSS they also recognize all aspects of tables too. Remember, long before CSS, there were some really amazing websites out there that looked great, loaded fast, were elegantly designed, were complex to the max and last but not least looked good in all browsers at the same time. Even in the Mac world.
This doesn’t mean to forget CSS but it does mean that you don’t have to build all websites with it either. If you currently know how to correctly build with tables, are happy with your results, don’t want to go through the learning curve of a new way to build your site, are willing to use external style sheets to bring your table based site up to speed and don’t plan on becoming a “web designer” any time soon then stick with tables for layout until the time comes, if ever, that you want to give CSS for the layout aspect of web design a try.
The following are some of the reasons for going the CSS route:
· If you plan on becoming a professional web designer you need to know and use CSS.
· If you are completely new to web design and haven’t learned the table layout method as of yet then, by all means, start with all aspects of CSS first and go from there but don’t leave table layout out of your education either.(You’ll find places you will use it)
· If you are a web design hobbyist and just really enjoy web design you will get pleasure out of learning and using CSS.
· If in the future you plan on building many websites for your own use it would be good to know how to use the many aspects of CSS.
· If you want your website to be available to the widest forms of current web viewing equipment CSS is a must.
· For the greatest accessibility for users with special needs CSS is great. (But we all know that FP02 is fully capable of creating external style sheets and that special need users with their own custom external style sheets can still use them with table layout websites, created with FP02 or Expressions web, for ease of use)
But for you Winxmaster it doesn’t really sound as if you have to go the complete CSS route for your site.
· First, it sounds like you are a professional Real Estate agent and not a professional web designer and don’t ever want to become one.
· Second, it seems that you don’t really enjoy building websites at all and only did it for business reasons, as many do, and if you had the choice you would rather get a root canal than build another one.
· Third, it sounds like, from what you posted, the site that you already built works well with all the major browsers out there so I’m guessing that you have already constructed a site that is pretty streamlined when it comes to table layout and doesn’t have a bunch of tables nested within a bunch of other tables and so on.
· Fourth, if it’s a real estate site I’m assuming that you have pictures of houses, outside and inside, that you want your customers to be able to look at on full sized screens and are not really interested in having your site viewed on the small screens of pda’s and such. (Is that a house or a funny looking cow?)
· Fifth, if you already used External Style Sheets then your site is already usable by special need viewers.
So my suggestion to you would be to first just try out the site that you have already built. There are probably tens of thousands of sites out there right now, some very nicely designed too, that were created with FP02 and are happily chugging along as you read this. Even when FP Extensions go the way of the dinosaur many of these sites will keep happily chugging along if they don’t have any special FP Extension needs.
So go ahead and publish it. Heck, if it still looks good when you view it in all the browsers and if it Macanates well (looks good on a Mac) and if it loads fast enough to make you happy then go with it. Even if FP02 does include extraneous code it isn’t always a problem that will always get in the way. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. It does tend to slow down load times but not always by a great deal, sometimes it isn’t even noticeable at all. If your site uses bits that are dependent on FP extensions then take them out or change them as necessary. As for the forms just talk to you host and they should already have scripts that will handle your forms the way that you want.
If, after you publish the site, it doesn’t look or act the way you want it to then rebuild your site using Expression layout tables, as they give you the ability to. Use CSS style sheets if you already haven’t. Keep the table layout simple so it will work well in many browsers, as it seems you already have. Then test it as you did your FP02 site.
Remember tables are like hotdog buns. The hotdog purist (trust me they are out there) will tell you that the hotdog bun was created to only hold tubular hotdogs, and they are correct, but you can still take one and slather it with peanut butter and then plop a dill pickle in it and it taste pretty good!
Good Luck! 
< Message edited by Captain America -- 9/3/2008 20:34:30 >
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Winxmaster
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/4/2008 17:22:38
Thanks Captain America!
Boy did you hit the nail on the head.
I am a Real Estate agent and if I never have to make a website again that will be fine with me. Didn't like doing it and don't want to do it again.
Other than the forms my FP 2002 site doesn't use anything that requires Frontpage Extentions. After checking around the office I discovered that most of the other agents sites were also built with the FP 2002 that we were issued originally. A few are going to redo their sites with the new Exsressions that we have but most have sites up that look good and work good. As for the Pda thing. Do you know how many sales are lost because customers look at one of our listings on those things and they make an open spacious nice listing look like a little cramped shack. We ask our customers to never look at one of our listings over one of those things!
If I find that I have to redo my site after I publish it I'm going to use the layout tables that Expressions comes with. I've done quite a bit of looking at CSS on this forum and at the book store in the last few days and to put it plainly I just don't want to learn it right now. If I'm starving to death and want to eat dinner and all that is handy is a salad fork I'm going to pick it up and eat my dinner with it even though it wasn't "meant" for that. If I know how to use it and it's there and it brings me the same results It will do for now.
One of the things that I saw that made up my mind was a CSS tutorial that showed a really nice looking website made with tables and they showed you step by step on how to make it with CSS. When they were done they had made a website that looked exactly like the table made website. That's when it hit me. It looked exactly like the other site. The skys didn't open and angels didn't sing it just sat there looking like the original site. Well, I'd be happy with the original site.
I know that the CSS site can be viewed on little hand held devices better but I don't want my site to be viewed on them ever.
As for the Hobbiest site thing. You are right Captain America. Long before CSS was created Ford, General Motors, Microsoft, IBM and Apple, to name a few, all had some pretty nice "Business" sites that were probably created with tables. Those were far beyond Hobbiest sites it seems.
And when it comes to cliffs I don't think that they were created for anything. They just sort of formed. And if your goal was to jump off of something high and a cliff was handy it would be pretty silly to get in your car and drive to the city jsut to find a tall building. Lots of base jumpers jump off cliffs and cliffs work for them.
Thanks CA
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/4/2008 17:53:19
quote:
I learned the program and spent about 2 months building a site that looks good on my computer when viewed on all of the major browsers.
Well--that just changed again with Chrome and IE8 BETA 2.
If you have created a cross-browser friendly page with tables then more power to you.
However, I can re-skin a tableless site by simply changing the CSS file and you will have to rebuild all 8 bazilion of your pages manually. Re-design just became MUCH less expensive!
My sites will be able to be viewed IN THE FUTURE by all operating systems and appliances (even your refrigerator) with the appropriate CSS file.
With the advent of CSS we are able to completely separate our content layer (text and relevant images) from our presentation layer (layout images, font sizes, etc.). Tables will be used for tabular data.
The advantage to using CSS is that you will have the ability to get your content into many more hands then you will be able to by using a table layout--that is very important to my clients now and in the future.
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/4/2008 19:01:42
You cannot redesign as completely and easily with tables since your content is stuck, well, in tables!.....
Take a look at the varieties of designs possible JUST by changing the CSS: http://www.csszengarden.com/
This is simply not possible with a table structure.
Like it or not, conform or not, tableless CSS is the both present and the future.
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/5/2008 9:28:17
We found (and purchased) our new home in December of last year when our realtor's web site pinged my blackberry with a new listing--photos and all. We saw the home the same day and made an offer the day after.
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Winxmaster
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/6/2008 3:22:50
One sale made vs. dozens of sales lost. You do the math.
You may have more web building experience than me but I have more home sales experience than you. Maybe 6 to 8 on your part vs. hundreds on my part (23 years in the business). Trust me on this one, as soon as the web became available on tiny screens most of us groaned in unison (I'm sure someone jumped with joy about it and will post here to let me know). I have taken more than one customer to a house that they viewed on a tine screen and decided that it wasn’t for them (when I knew it was) and had them fall in love with it when they saw it better.
As was pointed out, rather icily so, I did come to this forum asking for help and got many answers from many posters, which I fully thank you all for. The info that CA gave me just happens to suit me better at this time. I don’t see the need for anyone to get into a snifit just because, at this point in time, I didn’t go the total CSS route. Simply taking someone’s advise isn’t a “Love fest” as was so pettily put.
Jaybee, it seems that if someone doesn’t follow your advice then you get rather thin skinned, petty and abusive (Just what did you want to do to CA with that rubber chicken?). Not really good professional form for a person in an Administrators position. If I treated a customer (or any person for that matter) with such distain I would be fired by my broker. And rightly so.
Why don’t you change the name of this forum to “The Expressions Web CSS Only Forum”? Then newbie’s would know what they are getting themselves into. God forbid someone comes here asking advice on Expressions layout table templates. Isn’t this place supposed to give you info and/or help with ALL of Expressions functions?
Just as a stable website is good, so are stable emotions and not petty post just because someone chooses one point of view over another.
Edited PS: The following was stated "By all means stay where you are, those who move with the times are the ones who will get the business."
There are 231 agents in our office and only 3 have higher total sales than I achieved in 2007 and two of those are in the comerical division (high dollar listings). The funny thing is that none of those three even have personal business websites. If you knew the business you would know that real estate is 95% personal contacts and refferals and about 5% everything else (websites,ect.). I don't think that I will have any trouble "getting the business" as time moves on.
< Message edited by Winxmaster -- 9/6/2008 4:09:39 >
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/6/2008 8:58:53
I am not trying to argue with you.
BTW I am a grandfathered RE Broker in Texas and was a Real Estate Developer in the 1970's and 1980's having built over 175 homes in Southeast Houston under the company name Shannon Ventures, Inc. My folks own a mortgage company and turned our RE sales company into a Gary Greene franchise several years ago.
I think the RE business itself is undrgoing quite a sea-change here in Texas with Realtors becoming less a part of the sales search itself (their web sites doing a lot of the heavy lifting) and then they are called in to show and close.
Is that what you are seeing also? Interested in what you think the future holds for realtors in general. Although we found our home from a realtor that had a great web-site (that pinged us) we used a friend of ours (not with that company) to show and close so she could earn the commission.
< Message edited by TexasWebDevelopers -- 9/6/2008 10:06:27 >
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Captain America
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RE: FP 2002 Code Bloat & EW - 9/8/2008 20:21:07
Hmmmmm? Mysterious…..
I like it!!! I’ll have to put that on my resume. I’ll change “Dark and handsome” to “Mysteriously dark and handsome” that sounds soooooo much better.
To be serious now. Do you wonder why I haven’t posted here before? Have you noticed what this thread has evolved, or devolved, into. Someone simply comes here to ask a question and Jaybee post an answer stating one way to go and I post an answer (That’s how these things generally work, you get anywhere from one answer to a few different answers) proposing three possible ways to go. One poster post a funny and friendly response not quite agreeing with my view on table use (I’m guessing here) and then we get a bit darker response stating that they would like to do more than tickle me with that imaginary rubber chicken.
Winxmaster, apparently after some investigating on his own (that’s the generic use of “his” for this post) post that he decides to go with one of my suggestion. Jaybee then posted that if Winxmaster goes any other way than the way Jaybee suggested the site would regulated to the position of a “Hobbyist” site and then went with the “jumping off the cliff” thing. Jaybee talked to Winxmaster like you would to a six year old. I guess that Winxmaster doesn’t appreciate being talked down to (go figure) and shot back a bit of a PO’ed post. Then Jaybee shoots back with the “kiss off” post. ((You came and asked your question got your answer and decided what you want to do (don’t you feel that there was a ‘now go away’ between the lines somewhere in there) and, of course, your also going to lose your customers and be left in the dust by everyone else)). Jaybee you forgot to state the he was going to develop male pattern baldness and his dog wouldn’t like him anymore either. (Did you ever notice all the balding CEO’s out there? Yep, it’s those tabled websites that their companies have been using all these years. Remember, you heard it here first)
Jaybee it’s nice to greet someone with an open friendly hand, like you did, when Winxmaster first asked his question, but if he doesn’t choose your advice it doesn’t mean that you have to slap him in the face with that same open hand if he chooses to take another’s.
That is so mysteriously, or not really so mysteriously after all, the reason that I haven’t put on battle gear and posted here, or most forums for that matter, before. I have read this, and many other, web design forums for many years to learn new tricks for my own design business (there are good points to learn at many places). But I only post and interact on two well regulated private professional web design forums. One for Northwest web designers and one hosted by a rather brilliant designer in Australia (I WISH that I was that good). We all pay a pretty penny to interact and expand our knowledge of the trade at those forums. All ideas are welcomed and fully discussed there but attitudes are strictly left at the door, we don’t pay good money to listen to personalities. You act friendly and professionally and then you enjoy the benefits of many great designers. You don’t and you quickly find the door locked. It’s kind of like playing a game of pool at a nice country club compared to the local bar. You can have divergent points of view about ways to do things without having to worry about someone swinging a pool stick to hit you in the back of the head.
Nice swing Jaybee.
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Printable Version 
They give me a fit of the horrors. If you get the book above it takes you through building without tables. Tables are for data.
