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What major factors are taken into account by search engines!
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andreyknure
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Joined: 10/31/2008
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What major factors are taken into account by search eng... - 10/31/2008 14:28:57
I would like to start this important post to share the most effective search optimization practices, lets start discussing what search engines like and what factors have a direct impact on website search engine ranking, you are welcome to continue ...
- Keyword phrases put in website content
- Keyword phrases put in meta tags - tittle, description, keywords
- Incoming link quality and number
- Keyword phrases in incoming links
- Keyword phrases in internal links
- Keyword phrases in domain name
- Each page should be available for 2 clicks
- The time visitors spend on website
- Content update
- Website traffic
- Domain age
........
if you have something to add, please, don't hesitate to do this!!!
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Mojo
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 10/31/2008 23:24:37
quote:
This is most all you need to know about Google:
Wow. This is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin.
For those that don't know, SEO is it's own industry - the same as database developers, programmers or Web designers. Personally, I don't know how someone can be an effective SEO in today's environment without knowing how to program. There are very few off the shelf tools that are worth their cost - if you are working in competitive industries.
Generally, the biggest bang you can do for your Web site is to get more incoming links. Links from Web sites that are in the same industry as the target site are the most desired, but links from sites that will host your content (pre-sell pages) are also very powerful.
In my opinion, the next most important aspect is the internal linking structure of your web site and where on your site external links are pointed. How you determine this is usually through a program because it is just too confusing to try and figure it out on your own. For sure, it can be done, but if your competition comes at you with a solid linking strategy and implements it in a programatic tactical manner - you will struggle to keep up. I have been making my living from mostly SEO for close to nine years and have tried it both ways. Having a plan based upon competitive linking analysis is always the best.
The third most important thing you can do is to have good content. Following this will be all the stuff that you can read about on any forum which includes the items mentioned in the original post. Google seems to have a different way of ranking sites based upon the industry - so that also needs to be taken into account.
1. Incoming links
2. Site Architecture (links and the flow of content)
3. Good content.
4. Text-book SEO with some subtle changes that can make a difference.
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michaelea
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/1/2008 14:05:14
Thanks for the Google link. Fantastic!
Getting back to the basics every so often is like rising to a breath of fresh air when coming from the murkier depths of the seo 'maybes'.
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Mojo
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/5/2008 0:34:53
quote:
Building a well coded page with relevant content and relevant incoming links is all you need for organic search.
While you may have built a few sites - You are obviously not a competitive SEO professional. It is so much more than the textbook SEO you describe - and your description shows your lack of experience in this discipline.
By the way - I WILL take the challenge you made to the unnamed SEO company. That is, if you actually have a challenge and can provide just compensation.
If you don't have a challenge - perhaps Tom will monitor one?
It is real easy to start claiming that SEO is bunk and anyone can do it. In my experience, webmasters, developers and designers will say that SEO is junk because they CAN'T DO IT.
Your advice that all you need to do is to listen to Google will NOT help anyone on this forum.
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womble
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/5/2008 7:14:51
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mojo
quote:
Building a well coded page with relevant content and relevant incoming links is all you need for organic search.
While you may have built a few sites - You are obviously not a competitive SEO professional. It is so much more than the textbook SEO you describe - and your description shows your lack of experience in this discipline.
Much as I really don't want to get into another flame war, I have to say that on this occasion I can see both sides of the argument. As TexasWebDevelopers says, a well coded page with relevant content and relevant incoming links can sometimes be all you need for organic search, and obviously TexasWebDeveloper's had some success with this approach (just on a matter of semantics Mojo, I'd say 1800 sites is slightly more than a few  ). I can see Mojo's point as well though, to a point, and in particular the part about getting more incoming links, and it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
By no stretch of the imagination would I call myself an SEO expert - I tend to mainly follow Google's advice, and largely to date I've relied on the relevant content method with a few high-quality relevant incoming links, and for one particular site that strategy's been fairly successful, and it's consistently on the first page of the search results, and usually in the top 10 for the two most common phrases we'd expect people to use. It's one of three sites I manage on a related subject. I'm actually in the process though of redesigning one site to maximise the content and get the best out of it, as the first stage of my new SEO strategy. The sites are already well coded and content-wise, on the whole I've followed all the rules of making sure the key words and phrases occur early in the text, etc. Regarding search engine results, all three of the sites do pretty well in the results, but it wasn't by accident that I ended up with three sites. One of the sites is mine, but the other two are sites I manage for an organisation, and I guess it's in kind of a niche area, so it's not as though we have tons of competition, but if you search on the main keyword which all three sites are optimised for, apart from the sites of various organisations coming up in the search results, you also get page after page of articles on the subject, and obviously we're aiming to rank above them (which mostly we do). With the third site I developed, I could have added the content, which is about a very specific project they work on and not the same as the existing content already on their main site, into a new section on their existing site, but I recommended they go for a separate domain for it and developed it as a stand-alone site.
That strategy's paid off, because all three sites link to each other, as well as to other sites on the web, and I have recently noticed a jump in the search positions of all three sites. The last site to be developed, which is actually only about 6 months old actually ranks higher than the other two, though I've not managed to fathom out why yet. My next step is to see if I can increase the number of incoming links on one of the sites in particular. I'm following Google's advice that they've summarised in the "quality guidelines" section of the page TexasWebDevelopers linked to about not participating in link schemes, keyword spamming, etc., etc. and going to be going for the good old fashioned method of contacting the webmasters or person in charge of the organisation and asking if they're interested in a reciprocal link, and seeing what sort of effect that has.
Much of our traffic, or rather people specifically looking for information on the subject of the sites comes from word of mouth referrals, and a certain amount of offline advertising accounts for quite a high proportion of people coming to us by directly typing the URL(s), but I know from the emails I get via the sites that we also get a fair amount of people finding us through the search engines, so obviously a good search engine ranking's also important.
Okay, so bottom line is I'm prepared to concede that incoming external links may probably do play a big part in SE ranking, especially in markets where there's lots of competition (though in niche areas in my experience the "content is king" approach for organic search seems to work very well with sometimes relatively few incoming links) and I'm going to give it a shot at making a concerted effort to increase the number of incoming links. I'm also planning on using the same strategy for a new project early next year, which isn't so much of a niche market, and seeing what sort of effect I get with that. Admittedly, it won't really be a fair contest, as with my current project, two of the three sites I'm managing are well established sites and the new one next year will be a brand new site, but it'll be interesting to compare the results nevertheless.
I'd be interested in hearing more about TexasWebDevelopers' experience with using mainly simply good quality content and incoming links though, because it's obviously a strategy that's working well for you. Similarly, I'm also wondering why Mojo, when Google power the major proportion of web searches, why you feel that coding for Google is "way off base" (and as I started off by saying I've no desire to get into another row, I'm simply interested in why you disagree with it).
On a related matter, I was reading an article on high quality links the other day that talked about Google's "Trusted Content Sites" and Google's trust system. It also mentioned the benefit of outbound links as well, and seemed to suggest that that can be a big part of the "trust" calculations, and I wondered what your take on Google's trust system is?
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Mojo
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/5/2008 11:12:13
Building Web sites has zero indication of skill with SEO. They are two entirely separate disciplines.
So, while 1800 Web sites is a lot - it doesn't count for anything as far as competitive SEO goes. SEO solutions do count and positioning oneself as an SEO expert that tells everyone that all you need to do is to listen to Google is folly at best. If you doubt, just search Google for SEO forums, threads or blogs and spend a few months reading. You won't be an expert, but you will be able to tell if you're listening to one or not.
Just using good content and waiting for things to happen can and does work well in niche - less competitive environments. The big issue is that if you want to be #1 and all you're doing is textbook SEO and following the Google guidelines - you will have major problems when an experienced SEO enters your market.
Enter the professional SEO developer who is: Structuring internal links following the Google Page Rank algorithm, controlling the flow of Page Rank by restricting site wide navigation menus in a proper method, builds TONS of backlinks with varying link text, has good unique content (good content is the easiest part), programs evergreen changes to targeted pages and experimental changes to the HTML. These things are very easy to write down and for the duffers to repeat to clients or unsuspecting forum members, but implementing them properly is time consuming, takes experience and is difficult. They are also against Google's guidelines (except for the good content) since they are all done for the purpose of increasing one's position in the search results.
What separates a good SEO developer from the average one?
1. You need to be able to program. Trapping HTTP headers, dynamic links from a database and finding the top competitions Title, file names and Hx tag values across hundreds of keywords in less than 10 minutes - these things all take programming/scripting. They are just a few instances of why a strong SEO, in today's environment, needs to be able to program.
2. Backlinks. This can often go with the programming requirement above. How many QUALITY backlinks can you drive to a web site? From uniques sites? How quickly? The ability to generate hundreds or thousands of good backlinks from quality sites is something you must have. Also, knowing how often to build those links is very important. Many of my clients and client competitors have over 100,000 backlinks. You must have a plan to deal with this.
3. Understand the Google Page Rank algorithm. This is NOT something that someone can just do in their head. I wrote a program that follows the published Google PR algorithm (that programming thing again). You plug in different pages and their linking relationships and the output shows you a standardized PR for each page. This is NOT Googles PR, but rather a representation of what your internal PR would be with no outside influences. Once you have this, you can tactically add new pages to your Web site and know *exactly* where to place them, how to link to them and where they should link to. Every time you add an internal link to your site the PR changes on many/most of the pages. Obviously, PR is only a part of the overall Google equation, but the flow of the site makes a big difference in the search results.
Google Trust - You must link outward. Not linking to external sites is a flag that you may be trying to hoard link power. If you build enough flags your site can end up in trouble. I tend to pick .edu or .gov sites to link towards. I will also link to .com's but you have to make sure they are not your competition or that they will not be purchased by your competition.
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michaelea
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/5/2008 11:49:54
Very good - for me - chat here. Thanks for the backwards and forward chatter, banter and solid gold information.
As usual, when visiting Outfront, I realize how far I really haven't come at all and, how many miles there still is to go.
As if building and maintaining a website (heck, even a webpage) wasn't enough - SEO is a whole added dimension (the sixth?). After all, who doesn't want to get on the first page of G.
I'm just continually amazed when I come up on the first page of G. for some popular terms and have no idea really why. And then, I'm scared to touch - even look at - the page!!
How do you deal with a dynamic page that changes from week to week in terms of say coupons, deals and prices? Sometimes I go up to the top and sometimes, well, I'm invisible!
Would you then have to create 1 good static optimised page that internally links to those ever changing dynamic pages? Am I on the right track with that idea?
Thanks.
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/5/2008 14:00:57
quote:
So, while 1800 Web sites is a lot - it doesn't count for anything as far as competitive SEO goes. SEO solutions do count
I really am trying to stay polite here--maybe it's just that natural Chicago bullishness coming through in your tone.
So Joe, acknowledging that plumbers have the leakiest faucets...(we haven't moved our site out of tables or optimized it as well as possible)...I see, according to your profile, that you are the new SEO expert at LiquidPrint in Chicago. Sincere congratulations on the career move, by the way, going from consultant to employee is difficult. Now, this question is not meant to piss you off, but you are representing yourself as the professional SEO developer. If, down here in Texas, I type in the generic search term "Search Engine Optimization" or even make it more location centric like "Search Engine Optimization Illinois" or even more granular like "Search Engine Optimization Chicago" why doesn't your company show up in the top ten (or even twenty)? Or "Chicago seo" or "Chicago web design" or "Illinois web design" or "Illinois web developers" or "Chicago web developers"? I did finally find LiquidPrint ranked #5 with "chicago internet marketing" but I had to pull the phrase from your web page as this isn't the generic term I would have typed in searching for an SEO company.
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womble
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/6/2008 16:11:23
quote:
ORIGINAL: michaelea
How do you deal with a dynamic page that changes from week to week in terms of say coupons, deals and prices? Sometimes I go up to the top and sometimes, well, I'm invisible!
That's an interesting point, and one I've been wondering about. One of my sites has a forum on it, and currently the front page of the forum's on the homepage of the site. I'm considering moving the forum into a different directory and using a static home page, so that at least for the homepage I can control the content on there make sure all the keywords and phrases are in there.
Obviously the content on the forum varies from day to day and as I have most of the 'off topic' boards where there's general chit-chat 'members only' and therefore hidden from the search engines, so though I obviously can't control the quality of the posts entirely, at least the areas visible to search engines are relevant to the rest of the site and the keywords get used fairly regularly.
While certain parts of the forum do get indexed, even pages with threads with quite a high proportion of mentions of the various keywords don't tend to be very highly ranked, whereas the pages that are consistently highly ranked tend to be the static pages.
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womble
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/6/2008 16:21:30
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mojo
Google Trust - You must link outward. Not linking to external sites is a flag that you may be trying to hoard link power. If you build enough flags your site can end up in trouble. I tend to pick .edu or .gov sites to link towards. I will also link to .com's but you have to make sure they are not your competition or that they will not be purchased by your competition.
Thanks for clarifying that. Would you say there are any exceptions to the rule of not linking to your competition? I guess what I'm saying is would that just be for commercial .com's? Would the same hold true for non-profits for example though? I can see that would make sense for commercial competitors.
I'm currently working for a couple of non-profits though, and most of their outbound links would probably be to sites that would be considered their competition. Though obviously to a certain extent they are competing against each other for supporters and donations etc., on the whole the organisations within that "community" tend to work together to achieve common goals. Would that linking damage them in any way in terms of the search engines though, or would it just be seen as similar relevant content and increase their trust ranking?
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Mojo
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/7/2008 0:06:22
quote:
I really am trying to stay polite here--maybe it's just that natural Chicago bullishness coming through in your tone.
You know what...? You're right. I came off like an ass. I'm sorry.
I spend a lot of time working with clients who have payed way too much money for SEO services that were garbage. Nothing more than following the Google guidelines. When I read that statement I vented.
While my new employer found me and made me an offer that I couldn't refuse - they still allow me to maintain my current client base and even take on new clients. So, I haven't left consulting altogether. Their Web site doesn't rank well for many reasons, but mostly because we haven't done anything with it. They are a Web development company offering SEO services to their existing and new clients. Maybe someday we will fix it, but I'm not holding my breath.
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TexasWebDevelopers
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/7/2008 10:09:32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mojo
Maybe someday we will fix it, but I'm not holding my breath.
I can really relate--like I said, the busiest plumbers often have the leakiest faucets. I have a new CSS XHTML template ready for my own development site but just don't have the time to implement it. And I, like michaelea, am unsure if I really want to redesign the landing page since I am in the top 10 for all of the keywords I want to use. I'd hate to blow my position. Even at PR4 I get 5 to 8 new client inquiries per week--many of which I refer out to other developers.
---------
Now about outward linking. We've been working with a mediation site that has a few good incoming links. We linked out to some .edu sites (law schools) and drifted slowly up in position. However, when we linked to some .gov sites for state documents we dropped like a rock! So, we PDF'd the docs, saved them locally, and linked to them. The position came back up again but not as high. Since this was a pro-bono site (we did it for free) I didn't want to spend too much time fiddling with this but made a mental note to watch out for outward .gov links. Just a coincidence or is Google looking for bogus outward links? (As a side note, back in the day, you could link to the National Archives and immediately pop to the top! That only lasted for a few months!)
< Message edited by TexasWebDevelopers -- 11/7/2008 10:17:17 >
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michaelea
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/14/2008 12:59:46
So here's a mystery?
A very popular search term for a very popular product. - Refurbished iTouch
I have no inbound links and, a crappy page.... and, get 100's of top 3 hits a day.
What's with the inbound link thing?
Oh, I'm the northcoast result...
This is the page I'm scared to touch!
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michaelea
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/14/2008 19:25:15
quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasWebDevelopers
This is a classic well written page with relevant incoming links and keywords in H tags.
How long has the page been up and running?
Thanks for the explanation. Really.
I guess it's been up and running for about a year.
I find that the text/h2 at the top left of the page helps a lot with a lot of pages...
I thought that 3 inbound links, from everything I've read and heard, was something to be 'sneered at' compared with the 100's or 1000's that others' have?
Also thanks for the comment about the "....Relevant text in an H2 tag positioned high on the page...." - V. Interesting.
<--- back to do some editing on my new site coming!!!!
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michaelea
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/14/2008 19:55:07
and... refurbished itouch not even mentioned in the page's description tag...
Having learned, obsessed, practiced, and rewritten pages for G it appears to me that the more I try the worse it gets. And, beyond the 'basics', seo is neither art nor science but, just a plain ole mystery!
Hopefully or, at least apparently, I still have more to learn!
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Mojo
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RE: What major factors are taken into account by search... - 11/18/2008 10:58:04
quote:
just a plain ole mystery!
It's really not that much of a mystery. The Google search results are a result of complex mathematical algorithms. Some people spend time, money and programming to better understand how Google achieves these results. It is *usually* not that difficult to determine why a Web site ranks in the top 10. Of course, just because you know how to drop your site onto the first page does not mean it will be easy. The wild card is and always has been backlinks. One of my current clients has around 1500 backlinks and struggles to achieve first page results even though they are the leader in their industry. When they brought me on I identified that their competition, while their products are inferior, they have been very aggressive in SEO for a few years. My client didn't feel the internet was necessary (big time error).
The average backlinks the competition has on the first page of Google is over 400,000! That is not something that is easy to reproduce. But hey, we have recently cracked the top 150! :)
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