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steveabbott
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Web Finishing Issue - 10/6/2009 22:18:40
Hey guys, this is my first time visiting the forum, but i really hope i can get some guidance.
Right now I have someone that wants me to make them a website, and i've only just barely touched on the coding side. But i have been able to figure out the basics. But I am totally clueless as to how i can set it up so my customer can easily edit the info after i'm all done and it's loaded onto the domain.
She needs to be able to go on and change scheduals/class dates stuff like that.. is this possible to set up easily?
thanks for any comments guys/gals it'd really be apprecieated.
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womble
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/7/2009 10:55:23
I'd agree with Tailslide - if you're struggling yourself to figure out how it all works, potentially it's going to be difficult to give the customer what they want, and do it in a reasonable time without driving yourself round the bend at the same time.
That said, my advice would be to invest in a couple of good books on HTML and CSS and master the basics. Once you've done that you can progress onto the more complex stuff such as working with PHP and databases, which is the sort of stuff you'll need to be familiar with for more dynamically generated sites. As Tail said, Wordpress can be used as a CMS, but it won't do it out of the box without a template that's designed more to be used as a CMS than a plain blog. Wordpress is fairly easy to template, but you do need to know what the code is doing and know where the hooks in the code are that hang the whole thing - code and template/graphics - all together. That said, if you can find a suitable template that can just be installed and is ready to go, that may be an option, but that depends on your customer liking the said template/you being able to adapt the template to what the customer wants.
The other way, if you can build something in HTML or XHTML and CSS is to look at something like Snippetmaster, which will let the client just log in and edit only very specific areas on a page. They can edit text and add photos (though if I remember rightly uploading photos is only available in the paid-for version of it, but it's only around $25) without any danger of messing anything up. I did a site for a BMX club a few months ago and used Snippetmaster for the bits they wanted to be able to update. The committee that runs it don't know the first thing about computers really, but they use it with no problems, and I also use it on a site I did for my 10 year old nephew. It's very easy to install and the setup's quite straightforward, and providing you know some basic HTML, it's fairly easy to specify which bits the customer can update and which they can't.
By the way, I've just taken a quick peek at your site, and it looks good. I take it though you're more of a graphic designer/designer rather than a coder? I can see from the code you've used SiteGrinder (nowt wrong with that, and it even validates, which will please Tailslide immensely  ), but the big problem with that approach is that you end up with a site that's very image-heavy (and potentially slow to load) and if for any reason your images fail to load (or someone's browsing with images disabled), all that shows up is your text. Without the images, you've got no visible navigation, your site isn't accessible (it's not accessible with the images on either) and anyone using keyboard navigation's going to get no-where because the site's not allowing you to tab between links.
It's not all bad news though - like I said your site looks very impressive (and I'm a big fan of Paint.NET myself, and spent a couple of months earlier this year learning how those clever graphics I'd seen on sites are actually made), and understanding the basics of the code is a very good start. You're definitely in the right place for guidance. Things have been somewhat quiet here recently, but there's a number of regulars who know their stuff when it comes to the code side of things, and whether you're a total beginner or pro, everyone's welcome here.
When I first joined Outfront about 5 years ago I didn't know the first thing about web design really. I'd offered to do a site for a voluntary group I did some work with, little realising what was involved, and after getting a copy of Frontpage I set off to make my first site. It was the first site I posted here for critique, and the general consensus was "Well it's okay for a first attempt, but...." and less than three weeks after it went on the server I started working on version 2 of the site and taught myself HTML and CSS (with a lot of help from the kind folks here, including Tailslide, who taught me a hell of a lot about using CSS - she's a very clever lady, and even understands 'HasLayout'  ). Five years on and with a few qualifications under my belt and a lot more experience, I'm now branching out and starting to work more with dynamic sites that are database driven, and I've almost finished my first database driven site coded entirely by me (so I'm feeling rather pleased with myself ).
My advice if you want to do this....check out some of the HTML/CSS tutorials at W3Schools.com and check out Snippetmaster, and maybe have a go at installing it in a test directory on your domain with a copy of a site, and see what happens. If you run into any problems, come back and tell us what's going wrong, what's not working, or what you don't understand, and we'll do our best to help.
_____________________________
~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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steveabbott
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/7/2009 19:36:46
Hey guys thanks for the replys!
quote:
The other thing to ask - and please don't take offence at this - it's not meant to be rude, but why is someone asking you - who in your own words doesn't really understand what they're doing to build them a site?
no offence taken at all, it is totally an obvious thing to have to ask.. I am just tryin to start up a freelance graphic design gig, and this is the second site i've been asked to make.. the first one is still being worked on, and i am at the point where i am gonna start lookin around to get someone to just code it for me cause it needs stuff i'm not sure know how to do. and this second one deffintily needs to be easily editable. And i'm already seeing how the kind of customer you talked about can be a pain.. ugh lots of work may go down the drain here pretty soon if things don't start workin out on their end.
To womble:
Thanks for the comments..
i deffinitly see the problems you pointed out on my site with the pics making it up. I didn't code it, a friend did it for me on sitegrinder. i am thinkin about redoing it myself in frontpage someday soon just so i can easily update it myself.
i will have to check out snippet master too, if i could figure something like that out it would be very beneficial.
I really think it might be smarter for me to just stick to the design side of it, i don't know if i have time to learn about all the coding side of it..
Where would i look to find somebody to work with, that would allow me to still design the sites, but have the stabiltiy of a professional site?
sorry for the rambly/all over the place reply, i just got off a long days work and got my mind on a few different things on top of this.
i really apprecieate your replys!
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womble
Posts: 6007
Joined: 3/14/2005
From: Living on the edge
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/8/2009 9:28:39
quote:
ORIGINAL: Donkey
A design that works in print does not always work on the web.
Good point Donkey, and generally (not talking about this case specifically) that's the problem with a lot of inexperienced designers, who think in purely visual terms, and don't have any understanding of how it's going to tie together with the coding/programming side of it.
If you look at the web design mags though, often they talk about larger companies where the design and development roles are separated. Providing there's good communication between the designer and the coder, and each understands the limitations of what's possible in the other's sphere of expertise, it's possible to do it that way. As Donkey said though, a firm grasp of the HTML/XHTML/CSS does help you to design in a more holistically.
As for where you might be able to find someone to work with, you can always ask here if anyone's interested (though things have been very quiet of late around here). There's a number of programming freelancer's sites around as well where you can submit requests for bids for any programming work. People post details of the project, exactly what they're wanting, the timescales they need the work doing in etc., and programmers submit bids for consideration. May be an idea worth looking into,
_____________________________
~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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steveabbott
Posts: 10
Joined: 10/6/2009
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/8/2009 19:04:06
thanks for all the great advice guys! it is really a big help
I am still waiting on reply from the client about the consulting website i'm making, but if what i asked is a go, i'll come and i'll ask around for anyone interested in doin the coding side of it.
I've got a tiny bit of html knowledge from in highschool a couple years ago, so i guess you could say with a bit of review i'd be able to do the very basics, so i kinda sorta know the designing limits, but still have tonnes and tonnes to learn
i looked into snippetmaster, and if i can get it to work well, i think it would deffinitly be the ticket for the other website somebody is interested in, i just have to keep my fingers crossed and my attention to detail in line.
One other thing i've been asking and researching around about is pricing.. i know you probably are thinkin if a person doesn't have a ballpark idea of how to price something he may want to slow down and learn more of the fundementals, and i'd have to agree.. i know roughly what most graphic designers charge, and how things are billed out.. but the problem with me is, i've just got self taught experience. should i be charging more then half the price than a gd that has schooling? That's where i'm kinda stumped.. i don't wanna overcharge but yet i don't really wanna work for less then i do at my fulltime job..
would you guys consider 500 for a fully working/designed website is too much? What would you suggest as a per hour rate? is 25 too much? or should i be chaging in like the 10-15 dollar an hour range?
Thanks again for all your advice so far guys like i said it deffinitly means alot!
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womble
Posts: 6007
Joined: 3/14/2005
From: Living on the edge
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/8/2009 20:38:17
quote:
ORIGINAL: steveabbott
One other thing i've been asking and researching around about is pricing.. i know you probably are thinkin if a person doesn't have a ballpark idea of how to price something he may want to slow down and learn more of the fundementals, and i'd have to agree.. i know roughly what most graphic designers charge, and how things are billed out.. but the problem with me is, i've just got self taught experience. should i be charging more then half the price than a gd that has schooling? That's where i'm kinda stumped.. i don't wanna overcharge but yet i don't really wanna work for less then i do at my fulltime job..
would you guys consider 500 for a fully working/designed website is too much? What would you suggest as a per hour rate? is 25 too much? or should i be chaging in like the 10-15 dollar an hour range?
Thanks again for all your advice so far guys like i said it deffinitly means alot!
Short answer (well, shortish for me - it's rather late here now ) is, and some things to bear in mind:
- I'd say it partly depends on the customer (i.e. is it a small business or a large corporation - not that I'm suggesting you should necessarily charge depending on the size of the organisation, but a large company in all probability's gonna want a more complex and larger site, whereas a small business may only want a few pages
- a simple HTML site that's static (i.e. the content doesn't change) is going to be less than something more complex that runs off a database or a CMS
- you can't charge for your learning time - the customer's wanting a finished product and is paying for your experience and knowledge, as well as your time, so if it's something that's going to take more time to do in terms of hours of work because you're learning as you go along, charging by the hour isn't going to be appropriate because the actual billable hours you can realistically charge the customer for's only going to be a small proportion of the actual time it takes you
- self-taught stuff's fine, and is just as billable as stuff learned from formal qualifications, as long as you know your stuff. There are very few formal web design qualifications as such anyway, and the majority of web designers (freelancers anyway) are most probably largely self taught
- if charging for the finished project on a "whole project" basis seems more appropriate, maybe an idea might be to consider how much you'd charge for a pure graphic design project that'd take a similar amount of time to complete, and take it from there.
There's all sorts of things to take into account, and everyone has different views on whether it's best to charge hourly, or charge on a per-project basis, and there's no right answer really. A book I would recommend if you're planning on getting into web design as part of your graphic design work, is one called "How to start a home-based web design business" by Jim Smith (published by Globe Pequot Press). It goes through everything from planning a web design business to the actual starting up including how to write a business plan, setting competitive rates, taxes and accounting, working with customers, and tips and sample contracts etc. Though it's published in the US (I'm in the UK), it gives some sound advice, and without getting all technical and heavy.
_____________________________
~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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steveabbott
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/8/2009 22:57:23
thanks dude!
alot of that i've been factoring in, i deffinitly didn't count any of the time it took me dickin around with a couple things, for the most part the coding went pretty smoothly.
your advice helps alot man! i will have to stop in the library too and start lookin around at some books, i'll try finding that one for sure.
i still don't know what i should charge if i'm gonna do it per hour, but i think i'll figure something out, probably gonna get the short end of the stick for the first few but hopefully everything picks up.
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steveabbott
Posts: 10
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RE: Web Finishing Issue - 10/9/2009 19:55:42
sorry womble! i'm used to saying dude alot! my bad
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