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paul rayner
Posts: 232
Joined: 3/15/2001
From: yeppoon, qld, aus
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Opinion of Grid System - 10/9/2009 1:41:06
Hi
I'd like to direct this to those guys actively working in CSS and trying to "make a quid".
I've seen lots of info lately about (probably only cos I was searching for it), about CSS grids - namely the Golden Grid and 960 Grid.
I'm looking at ways to teach secondary school students with little appreciation for design, ways to create simple yet elegeant CSS driven pages. Either of these 2 methods seemed like they may do the trick - but I was really keen to hear from Industry people their opinion.
Cheers
Paul
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" In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is!"
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paul rayner
Posts: 232
Joined: 3/15/2001
From: yeppoon, qld, aus
Status: offline
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RE: Opinion of Grid System - 10/9/2009 5:04:39
Didn't want to sound pompous with the " I'd like to direct this to those guys actively working in CSS and trying to 'make a quid'" bit, but I appreciate the experience and expertsie you guys have in the "real world".
As for rambling, with nearly 7000 posts to your credit Tailslide, you could never be accused of rambling.
I know how you have often helped me with my queries (many of which are really noobish), and I'm sure many others appreciate the support you give. Hopefully we find time to say thanks!!
Thanks!
_____________________________
" In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is!"
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caz
Posts: 3742
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
Status: offline
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RE: Opinion of Grid System - 10/9/2009 11:29:53
I agree with Tail about the use of grids, maybe they are useful for magazine/newspaper sites, but wildly inflexible and code heavy for every day sites. (Zeldman of course swears by them, but again his A List Apart is huge.)
I also think that grids are a leftover from print production and I know that I used them in my early days of DTP, but like Tailslide I have tried them because it was a familiar design practice, but now I discount them as terribly cumbersome. Perhaps I can visualise better because of my early print training with grids, so maybe there is some virtue in exposing new students to this concept as a starting point in their studies - so long as they move on and are able to work without grids as a crutch.
Just my view of course.
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womble
Posts: 6007
Joined: 3/14/2005
From: Living on the edge
Status: offline
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RE: Opinion of Grid System - 10/9/2009 17:55:54
I agree with Tailslide. I too have looked at the grid system, but to me it just seems too inflexible and as Tailslide said, too much like tables for my liking. On reflection, again, thinking about what Tailslide said, it does feel like it's a wireframe for programmers to hang their code on, and just feels as though the extra "unnecessary" code makes it "clumsy" somehow.
I have to admit I've not investigated the Golden Grid (only the 960 grid), but for me it all just feels too inflexible. As Tailslide said, the Zen Garden might be a good starting place,
I once read somewhere that the difference between a web design beginner and an experienced web designer is that an experienced web designer can look at a page and know (probably) how that page is built, without needing to see the code. Somewhere like Zen Garden, where you can see the basic code and then also see what it's possible to do with CSS with it, as Tailslide said, is a good place to start. With the knowledge of the CSS box model, you can divide a page up without being stuck rigidly to a grid.
As for teaching kids, I had some teaching experience some years ago (though with the primary school age-group). I was taught to teach using the "starting point" method - we'd find a "starting point" which could be an object or a book, a play, a song, something like that, and the whole of the term's activities would be based around that "starting point", whatever it was. Personally, the approach I'd take would be to get them to look at websites generally, perhaps on whatever their favourite subject is, or hobby etc. and think about the similarities and differences between them, and think about why they like the site/why they don't, then look at any kinds of "trends" they can notice in different types of sites. From there you could perhaps lead onto general design principles, and once they know some basic (X)HTML/CSS get them thinking about how they can use that knowledge to create the different types and styles of sites they started off looking at, including possibly CSS grids. That's the approach I'd take anyhow (the teaching college I went to was very "child centred" and we were encouraged to encourage the kids to take an active part in learning and reflecting on learning. Just my 2 cents worth.
One book I've found interesting recently has been the "Non designer's design book" by Robin Williams - it's got some really good ideas and advice about how to format text and stuff for a more visually appealing look - as the title suggests, graphic design for the non-designer. Might be worth checking out to get some ideas for ways to approach introducing introducing design to your kids "with little appreciation for design" 
Back onto those grids by the way, I have to admit Tailslide, my last 3 sites, including my current one, has been fixed width  . My current one is I guess what you'd call a magazine layout, but done just using a normal CSS layout. This site was actually the reason I was looking at CSS grids, but I just felt it was all too limiting.
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~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~
~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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