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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
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Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/21/2002 21:13:57
This is the 3rd revision of http://www.chinaadviser.com
I haven't heard one good word about red yet!
Yesterday, The hotel agency in thailand accepted my site and sent a very enthusiastic
and encouraging email
I've been assigned well over 600 hotels, in malaysia, the philippines, bali, and thailand.
Now the work will really begin...optimizing jepegs for weeks.
I'm still waiting approval from another agency for HongKong, Mainland China and Australia...
If any of you have suggestions to futher improve the site.
Please let me know in the forum or by email
dompros@spinxs.com
Regards, Robert
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godshall2
Posts: 370
From: Telford PA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/21/2002 22:57:27
Hi Robert,
Thats great.. More work is always good... Heres my 2 cents. Just about every page loses my interest after the logo which looks great I might add...
Im not much for reading a page full of text. I can understand why you have all that text but it be nice if you could break sections of it up with images of anything.. Well some of the page you did, but most are very plain...
Ill use the embassies.html page as an example. It be nice if the content for that page could have a more formatted layout...
All in all the site looks nice, this was just my 2 cents, maybe even a penny..
Troy | www.aplustemplates.com
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/21/2002 23:46:07
Greetings, Troy
Well, about all that I can say is,
The embassies page is an address book, you're not supposed to read it...
Those letters at the top, are alphabetical hyperlinks. You're supposed to click on the link, copy and paste the info. that you want and leave.
If you're losing interest, you are no doubt not planning on going to China.
Firstly, this is a hotel booking site.
Secondly, as a extra benefit it provides information, for the health, safety, welfare and convience of English speaking travelers to mainland China, which can be a very hostile enviroment for the uninformed travler.
You have probably not kept track of nor are aware of just how many Foreign Nationals have been arrested and are imprisoned in China in the last few years. Including ordainary people to priests. Some for simply having to many Bibles.
You have no idea what cutoms problems are til you've gone thru customs in China...
Before anyone from any English speaking country goes to Mainland China, they had better become informed!
You can go directly to jail for not having correct prescriptions for your medication,
or lists for your belongings in your luggage.
This site is not about images, images cause slow loading time.
As time goes by there will be more plain white pages, loaded with information, added to the site.
I haven't even gotten to the stacks of text still waiting to be edited, concerning, Vacinations and so on.
Did you know that there are restricted cities and towns in China, where you will be arrested for entering with out an escort?
It really doesn't seem proper to me, to place unrelated graphics, among instructions, directions and warnings...
This site is about safe, secure lodging, for travlers and their families, during very trying times, for travlers from the West.
The way things are going now in this world of ours, there maybe no Americans going to the Beijing Oylimpics!
Well, That's my 2 cents...
Thanks for your observations.
Regards, Robert
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john40004
Posts: 1346
From: Bardstown KY USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 0:31:51
Just a suggestion. Everytime you complete a new update, you post a new listing on the forum. If you would post a response to an existing forum listing, the members of the forum would be able to see prior suggestions and also respond as to current changes.
I try to check in here each day and give my response to developers. I'm using XP with IE 6.0. All I'm trying to do is tell the developer what I see and the software I see it through. A new posting each day cuts into my time and I really don't have enough of it to jump back to prior postings. If you maintain one thread as to your changes, it will help us as to trying to help you.
As to the red background, I have an alumni site which has a navy-blue blackground with yellow letters. It ties-in perfectly with our school colors, but members of this forum have brought to my attention the fact that the site is hard to read. So too have been the comments as to your site. The red may be part of the Chinese colors, but the background still proves hard to read.
We're not here to beat you down. All of us who respond to this thread do so to try and help other website developers. Our concern is to beta-test your site before you present it those who will pay for it.
John Cresseveur
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Paula
Posts: 394
From: Morrow, Georgia, USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 1:08:30
Hi Robert,
I like red, a lot. However, it is very hard to read with red as a background. The transition from reading black on red to reading black on white is very difficult. I would use the red as a bold accent and not have very much text on the red. Just my opinion.
Paula
The more I learn the less I seem to know.
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 11:11:16
HMmmm... Not everytime, as I have been posting here for over 18 months... But, Yes John, I may maintain the same thread when appropriate, and may start a new one, if I don't want reviewers referring back to subjects that no longer matter, beating a dead horse, so to speak.
Sometimes, I may not want new reviews to be influenced by the old.
My compliments, John concerning, You taking the time to come here every day and give people your opinions. Keep up the good work!
About all that I would comment concerning peoples time, is if they don't have the time then don't do that!
It never entered my mind that anyone at all, was here to beat anyone down...I wonder why that thout came to mind? Why would someone do that?
This site isn't about me, nor what I want. It's about them and what they want...
As far as color scheme, is concerned, the folks that pay for it are very positive and enthuasiatic.
The site has been accepted by a second hotel chain. This is my second site for them and I'm certainly not going to go against their wishes.
This site was developed, following the Sept. 11th disasters', tremendous negative impact on travel from the west...
I'm beginning to doubt that "Westerners" can make informed judgements and insights as to "Asian" tastes and points of view! Because the Asian corporations that I'm dealing with just love it! Maybe they are just used to looking at "China Red"
and "Black Lacquer".
This site should probably be reviewed by people that are planning on traveling to Asia.
Rather than web design cookie cutters. That's one reason that I have never used templates.
I'm pretty sure that there are very few sites that look like this one, and provide the vast amount of information that it will contain when it is finished.
Well anyway, that's what the internet is all about. if one doesn't like one site they can just go somewhere else!
Thanks very much for your input and best regards, Robert
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Dompros
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From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 11:18:59
Hi, IM...
Linda is a fine person, a great designer and has produced an excellent template...
But, I detest templates, have never used one,if I did ever use one, I would design my own.
Regards, and thanks for your input.
Robert
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 11:28:22
quote:
As far as color scheme, is concerned, the folks that pay for it are very positive and enthuasiatic.
The people that pay for it don't matter a whit. If the people that are intended to use it don't like it or find it easy to use it will fail. It's that simple.
Do you have any evidence to suggest that if the red and black laquered effect was incorporated without the text being on a red background that they would like it less or that the response from hotels would have been any less enthusiastic?
The overwhelming concensus seems to be that people find the red difficult. You do have evidence of that. Posting here is a sort of rudimentry usability test - in this case it would seem that the background color has failed the usability test miserably.
It is your choice whether you decide to ignore that or not.
Katherine
++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.inkkdesign.com
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff"
Meeeooow!
Edited by - abbeyvet on 02/22/2002 11:29:48
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I.M.Learning
Posts: 108
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From: USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 11:29:30
Why'd you post in the Site Critiques if you didn't want site critiques?
Design your own template then, the site needs the professional touch to it.
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godshall2
Posts: 370
From: Telford PA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 11:48:29
Hmm,
Not sure why you got upset. I was just trying to help... I didnt mean till fill your pages up with useless graphics but only to format some ares so they looked polished.
The embassies.html page would look a little nicer if the directory had some formating like http://www.aplustemplates.com/temp/example.htm
Not a big deal but I just thought you were looking for ways to improve it not lash back and those only trying to help...You are correct, I know nothing about China but I do know a tad about webdesign..
Troy
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Dompros
Posts: 161
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From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 12:02:17
I.M.
I must have missed the point!
What does using someone elses template have to do with site critics?
It appears that you are making a personal remark towards me and my professionalism?
Where did I say I didn't want site critics?
Is there a rule, that I must make changes according to peoples opinions?
HI, Katherine...
The people who pay for it may not matter to some folks, but they matter much more than a whit, to me and to them!
Predictions of failure are not really necessary, The site will do fine, and in the future, changes may be made as needed.
Why would a person be requested to produce evidence?
Is there a trial going on here?
There are many, many other opinions available to me and in fact those expressed here are very few... and not an overwhelming concensus at all.
How many are there, a half dozen or less?
I can assure you that there are many more positive responses, than the 100% negitive found here!
As far as my choice to ignore, I never ignore any information that I receive here.
Especially the technical aspects.
When it comes to peoples personal tastes, they don't count much.
I think that predictions of my demise are permature...
Regards, Robert
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I.M.Learning
Posts: 108
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From: USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 12:11:22
Robert, I was "critiquing" a site giving my input that I thought it would be better visually if placed in a design format similar to the example template I listed, only using the reds you're wanting to use. I feel that design has a more professional look. You went off about templates so I got the opinion from that & from your previous posts that you really don't want or feel you need others input on the site. Thus the question, why'd you post in site critiques?
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 12:37:36
I really do not have any desire to be drawn into a pointless arguement. Everything that I, and all of the others who responded to this post, said was offered in the spirit of genuine helpfulness and as constructive critisism. You are free to take it or leave it but it is not necessary to try to rip it asunder. You asked peoples opinions and their opinions are as valid as yours once they have been asked for.
I think your site has fantastic content, is a very good concept and deserves to suceed. I wish you nothing but well with it. But to give your users a low importance is, in my opinion a very big mistake and may affect the eventual sucess of a site that deserves to do well.
I am going to quote a few lines from an article by Jacob Neilsen, who whether you agree with him of not is an internationally recognised authority on usability.
quote:
Elaborate usability tests are a waste of resources. The best results come from testing no more than 5 users.....
As soon as you collect data from a single test user, your insights shoot up and you have already learned almost a third of all there is to know about the usability of the design. The difference between zero and even a little bit of data is astounding.
When you test the second user, you will discover that this person does some of the same things as the first user, so there is some overlap in what you learn. People are definitely different, so there will also be something new that the second user does that you did not observe with the first user. So the second user adds some amount of new insight, but not nearly as much as the first user did.
The third user will do many things that you already observed with the first user or with the second user and even some things that you have already seen twice. Plus, of course, the third user will generate a small amount of new data, even if not as much as the first and the second user did.
As you add more and more users, you learn less and less because you will keep seeing the same things again and again. There is no real need to keep observing the same thing multiple times, and you will be very motivated to go back to the drawing board and redesign the site to eliminate the usability problems.
Once again, I genuinely and wholeheartedly wish you well with this site, but I will not be commenting on it again in the future since such comments as are made are accepted with such a lack of grace.
Katherine
++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.inkkdesign.com
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff"
Meeeooow!
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 12:37:50
No, Problem I.M....
I love critics, In fact, I have a folder in my documents, just for saving them. Especially, the ones that disagree with me, Which I believe count the most.
I can refer back to about 18 months of replies from this site
It's very easy to just go along with the positive stuff and tell yourself that "I'm doing fine"
I'm not the type of person that insists the site must be red forever...
But on the other hand, time must pass and information must come, dictating changes, before they will be made.
I read and respect you responses, I assure you that, what you have to say is well received!
Regards, Your unmet friend, Robert
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Dompros
Posts: 161
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From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/22/2002 15:33:26
Amazing!
I'm not upset at all...
How would calm, responsive, explanation, in common language and ordinary conversation, be considered lashing out?
I see, politeness and greatful thank you's in each of my posts, but I suppose, that coming directly to the point, would be considered a lack of grace in some parts.
Telling me that my site, "failed the usability test miserably." Was quite informanitive. Thank you for that input.
I had no idea that there was pointless arguing going on here?
What's the argument about and whose doing it?
Since Katherine is no longer involved,
Would any you of mind pointing out
"it is not necessary to try to rip it asunder."
Where I've done, "ripping asunder"?
I've read remarkes about me and my work, that some might lable as ripping asunder, but I would never call it that.
I'm very greatful, and thankful for all that has been posted here for my education.
For my part, I think that all of you, both induvidually and as a group, are of the very best.
If any of you could point more precisly, towards just what it is that you can't read, perhaps I could fix it...
Is it the large logo at the top, or is it the bright yellow with black text, mouse over Affect on the hyperlinks, or the black text on white pages?
I haven't had anyone outside of this forum, tell me that they had difficulty reading it, even people with tri-focals?
So, I'm having some problem trying to pinpoint the cause of the complaints...
Regards, and thank you all once again, Robert
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john40004
Posts: 1346
From: Bardstown KY USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 1:08:13
Hi Dompros/Robert,
This will be my last posting to this thread concerning your website. It seems that my input can no longer help.
As previously mentioned, I take a portion of my day to help others on this site as to development of their websites. Those who are also members of this site take a portion of their day to help me as to development as to my site.
The feedback at time from the members has been brutal - but always construtive. I've learned from those who have responded to me and I would also hope that others, to whom I've responded to, have also learned from me.
This is a fantastic community. A great group of folks who try to help each other.
It just seems however, that I can no longer offer any help to you.
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Dompros
Posts: 161
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From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 9:59:22
John... You're doing great, keep up the good work!
quoting you...
"This is a fantastic community. A great group of folks who try to help each other."
It sure is, I just love it!
Thanks for your input.
Regards, Robert
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Dompros
Posts: 161
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From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 10:26:11
To Godshall2...
Greetings,
After rereading your post concerning formatting the page.
http://www.chinaadviser.com/embassies.html
I concluded, that it was not clear for all users to realize it's usage.
You now have the opportunity to learn a little about page design and layout.
That page was designed in that manner for a purpose. It is designed to function as a mechanized indexing tool.
To format it would be the equivlant of formatting a rolodex.
The function of that page is not to scroll and read, but rather to click on the hotspot,hyperlink or bookmark however you may wish to name it.
This allows the visitor to instantly go the the embassy listing of their choice.
Once the visitor locates the embassy, they highlight it and copy it to the clipboard. Then they paste it into notepad. They may then, either print it out to take with them on their trip or save it in a file folder in my documents for future reference.
Located throughout the page at strategic locations, the word TOP will be seen, it is also a hyperlink that will return the visitor instantly to the index.
This is why that page is and others will be
designed in that manner.
Thanks for your interest and input.
You made me realize that I needed to insert direction at the top of the page.
I made the changes needed, many thanks to you...
Regards, Robert
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godshall2
Posts: 370
From: Telford PA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 14:52:52
How did you know I had a formatted rolodex...Lol
Troy
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 15:02:19
Troy...
I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to find that someone... Namely you! has a sense of humor around here!
You put a big smile on my face...
I'm grinning as I type this...
Your unmet friend, Robert
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Paula
Posts: 394
From: Morrow, Georgia, USA
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 16:41:17
Hi Robert,
You haven't read very much of this board if you think no one here has a sense of humor!
I think that if you ask for an opinion and you don't like what you hear, then the polite thing to do is say thank you and move on. It is pointedly impolite to whine that no one else you know has that opinion and explain why the person expressing the opinion is wrong. If you don't want someone's opinion don't ask for it.
So, there was a string that went into a bar and asked for a drink. The bartender said "We don't serve your kind in here." So the string goes outside and twists himself all up and pulls some of his threads loose and goes back into the bar. He asks the bartender for a drink and the bartender says "Hey, aren't you the string that was in here a minute ago?" and the string says, (wait for it, wait for it.....)
"No, I'm a frayed knot!"
Sense of humour... I'm afraid not!
Paula
The more I learn the less I seem to know.
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 17:23:01
Greetings Paula...
It appears that you are attempting to inter ject what you think, my thoughts and points are?
No doubt you are refering to the friendly banter between Troy and myself...
To quote you;
"I think that if you ask for an opinion and you don't like what you hear, then the polite thing to do is say thank you and move on. It is pointedly impolite to whine that no one else you know has that opinion and explain why the person expressing the opinion is wrong. If you don't want someone's opinion don't ask for it."
This is one of the most immature statements that I read in a long time! To the point of being...
ri·dic·u·lous (r¹-d¹k“y…-l…s) adj. Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. See Synonyms at foolish. [Latin rºdiculus, laughable, from rºd¶re, to laugh.] --ri·dic“u·lous·ly adv. --ri·dic“u·lous·ness n.
People everywhere disagree on just about any subject imaginable, When this happens, they generally enter into a ...
dis·cus·sion (d¹-sk¾sh“…n) n. 1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation. 2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
What would be the point of contemplating opinions, without, examination, expanding the depth of the view and making informed conclusions.
What may be concidered by some as pointedly impolite would be your childness rudness.
I'm pretty sure that I've read many posts on this board before you knew it existed.
You must not have read the statement that I made about the folder I have in my documents, where about 18 months worth of opinions from this forum are stored,
I'll put yours in there also if you don't mind, and return it for your review at a later date if you please.
Perhaps you should keep you personal insults to yourself and stick to web design...
I'll be glad to go at it with you, about that subject.
Regards, your friend , Robert
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Paula
Posts: 394
From: Morrow, Georgia, USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 17:33:27
Although your response seems a bit over the top to me, I am very sorry if I insulted you, that wasn't my intent. So I'll keep my opinions to myself where you are concerned from now on. Regards.
Paula
The more I learn the less I seem to know.
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/23/2002 18:05:35
Paula..
No need for that!
I'm very interested in your thoughts on webdesign, layout etc.
Glad to hear your points on technical
subjects and personal views as well!
When,given be fore warned,I will always ask why?
I don't have the ability to figure out the equation ?x?=something, I have to find out what the ?'s are, then analyze the =somthing, then go off and think about it, Then look around to see if there is more info to be had, and try to make an intelligent decision. Half the time I'm wrong after that.
When I question people it's not out of disrespect, but rather a deep need to know that's inside of me...
Regards, and no bad feelings on my part, Robert
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Mojo
Posts: 2441
From: Chicago
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/25/2002 16:05:49
Dompros, you said -
This site is about safe, secure lodging, for travlers and their families, during very trying times, for travlers from the West.
You then said:
I'm beginning to doubt that "Westerners" can make informed judgements and insights as to "Asian" tastes and points of view! Because the Asian corporations that I'm dealing with just love it!
Your uneducated statement about westerners is only outdone by your lack of tact. If your Asian corps believe as you do then they will have very few western visitors comming from YOUR site. By your own admission, your site is built FOR westerners. You need their input much more than input from an Asian company that does not understand the western culture.
I can't imagine your site will last long if you are not providing a quantifiable service to your clients. What they like does not matter as much as what we (I DO travel to Asia) like.... if they want the western business.
Here are some of the sites that your target audience *will* be using instead of your site unless you make some of the changes recommended by professionals in the industry. These same professionals understand YOUR target audience - westerners.
http://www.pmgeiser.ch/china/ - you have a long way to go to catch this site.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/ - ditto for this site as well...
http://www.hoteltravel.com/ - uh oh... they are starting to add up
http://www.orientaltravel.com.hk/ - whoops, another one...
http://www.asia-hotels.com/default.asp - yikes! this one hits too close
http://www.chinavista.com/travel/ - I am running out of things to say
http://www.asiatour.com/ - I am guessing there are hundreds of similar sites
http://www.chinahoteltravel.com/ - sorry, another one
http://china.muzi.com/travel/
This is only a small fraction of Asia/China travel sites. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of sites that you will be competing with. Most of them have a professional intuitive feel to them... they are easy to navigate, read and find what your looking for.
Joe
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/25/2002 20:47:53
Well.
To all of you, hackers and slashers,
Here is a copy of an email I just received from Thailand... ------
Why such a controversy?
I like the red and it JUMPS out at you and the timing couldn't be better.
You will always get people telling you what to do and how it should be done ( I run a few websites on my own) But the bottom line is how does it do in google/Yahoo.
If they like it thats all you need!
Richard
PS
Americans always think they know everything there is to know about everything (I am one)
but to bad its not true. I read lots of the discussion boards and they all seem to only have americans writing on them. What about the rest of the world
I always though it was WWW not USAW :-)
----------------------------------------
Yea,Yea,Yea, I know, Now, Richard is a boob and you can't stand him either...
I make no judgements about you, and your pronouncements concerning me don't mean squat...
I have no idea as to whether any of you are even adults, just as you know nothing of me.
You judge my written word, I judge yours...
As soon as you become my clients... You'll count for something. If you want it your way... send money!
What is it, that causes self appointed experts, such as yourselvs, to become involved?
No,one cares!
This is my business dealing. The Asian, companies that I'm dealing with now and in the future have accepted, with enthusiasim.
It's a done deal, folks...
All of this negativity,inside of you must be tough to live with, but you'll have to live it without me,
I, and what I do is already a success...
For you to believe that competition and marketing is only, understood by you and must be in the format that you are married to, is utterly ridiculous.
The input that's posted above should probably be labled "Small Person Syndrome"...
And to think that you actually believe that, I think that there is only one Chinese restauant in the entire western hemisphere, Is very funny!
Here, let me give you a hand with this so that you won't be bothered with it any longer...
I can't stand Roberts' face
nor his voice
nor his clothes,
He's a failure, and everything he has ever done failed.
He's no good now, has never been any good and is never gonna' be any good...
One thing for sure, I'm not going to do what you try to impose, You're attempts at intimidation are foolish.
I've been around long enough to know what label should be placed in front of the word criticism,
What is being posted here and now, certainly isn't constructive.
I'm not going to do as you say, so you'll just have to go ahead and pout!
He won't do what I tell him to do, so I'm not going to acknowlede that he exists!
How immature can you force yourselves to be?
Most everything, that you are stating in an attempt to appear wise and experienced are foregone conclusions.
School children, braggarts attempting to pass themselves off as pundits!
Your attempts to discourage anyone, from striking out on their own, is very small in stature indeed.
Typical predictions of failure by small tormented minds!
The only thing of real importance here is...
That none of you come here to where I'm at, and try to hurt me...
I've got my virus protection up, I hope it's enough, I'll be burning back ups on CD's the rest of the evening.
I'm asking all of you to leave it be, and not make any attacks on my PC.
Just try to hold back the common everyday evil that's in human kind and go about your own lives...
Imagine, telling someone on the other side of the world, that you know all about what it is, and that they are a failure!
It's truly impressive, the courage that rises up from the other side of a monitor screen and keyboard.
Just like being back in high school. Huh?
The clicques, groups, the in crowd,
HE,he,he,...
Best regards and condolences... Robert
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Dompros
Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2002
From: CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Doesn't anyone like red? - 2/25/2002 21:16:12
Oh, Yes, I forgot
JBennett:
Joe;
Will you please list you certifications..
Specifially ITT.
And with which,organizations you are registered with, So I can verify them...
I want be careful, before I start making changes!
Regards, Robert
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Printable Version 
). Maybe a grey or off white for a change. Personally I've been to China ( Xian in Oct./Nov) and grey would be much more appropriate. 
