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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 12:11:12
Portions of the home page on a web I've designed constantly give me trouble in Netscape. Some of the text and graphics seem to go where ever their little hearts desire. I do use tables within tables.
The area I'm particularly having trouble with is a table with two cells. In the right cell there is a small graphic. In the left cell there are three phrases (headlines); following each headline is "more info" text which is a hyperlink, the "more info" is followed by a small arrow graphic. The phrases are separated with soft returns (shift-enter).
The home page was initially set up, to the best of my limited ability, according to the method recommended by Thomas in his article "The Art of Building Tables." I followed the recommendations using the table and cell properties dialog box, but somewhere along the line they seem to take on a life of there own.
The page is one on which text and, to a lesser extent, graphics are added, taken away and new info added quite frequently. I've started pasting text I am sent into notepad before placing it onto the web page which has significantly minimzed the "disorganization."
Can anyone give me any info as to why this may be happening and what I can do to fix it and hopefully prevent it from happening again? As mentioned elsewhere, I have very little knowledge of html though I've spent a significant amount of time taking a peek to no avail.
By way of information, the page displays perfectly in IE and just about perfect in Opera.
Sorry this is so long.
gail
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Mike54
Posts: 4782
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: Way Up Over
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 12:25:44
Hi Gail,
This is a guess on my part but I experienced something similar when playing with someone elses site. The problem turned out to be that whomever had created the site used absolute positioning. When I took that out of the mix everything looked fine.
ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon.
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 12:30:19
Mike,
Don't use absolute positioning at all. gail
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 14:06:24
It's:
http://www.arborsnews.com
Thanks!
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 14:37:38
I'm using Netscape 6 and it looks bad.
As to the <p> tags, I did it on purpose to attract attention.
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Mike54
Posts: 4782
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: Way Up Over
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/10/2002 17:11:15
One more time into the breach. I hate a problem I can't resolve. If you open the page in FP and go to your headlines, delete the spaces between the text and "more info". So "more info" blends with the last word. Place the cursor between and insert 1 (one) space. This fixed the problem on my machine. I don't know why but it did.
Good Luck!
ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon.
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/11/2002 10:37:06
Thanks for taking another look.
The situation has improved somewhat however I'm still not pleased with the one inch white space at the top. Any other suggestions? If I'm really going to learn this stuff, I would like to learn to do/fix it correctly.
I went in and looked at the code after Gils suggestions. I deleted some duplicate things, brave soul that I am.
What does this mean? <o:p> I found and deleted lots of them.
Thanks again,
gail
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ginnie
Posts: 527
From: St. Louis MO USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/11/2002 14:46:53
Hi Gail,
I think this is where your problem lies. In the main content cell you have some bad code:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#CCCCCC" id="AutoNumber11" cellspacing="0" width="490">
<p</tr>
<tr>
<td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p</tr>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" width="100%" id="AutoNumber15">
<tr>
<td width="100%">
<p</tr>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" width="478" id="AutoNumber18">
<tr>
<td width="374">
<p align="left">
<p</tr>
<b><font face="Arial" size="2">Directors
elect officers for new term </font></b>
In bold are several paragraph tags that don't have the closing ">". It looks like those lines are creating empty rows in Netscape.
ginnie
Global Presence Web Design
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/13/2002 12:15:40
Thanks for the info, Ginnie...I really tried to fix the problem but to no avail. Anything I did made matters only worse.
As Mike54 pointed out, Netscape seems to be losing the browser war. I volunteer a lot of time managing this particular website. About 80% of that time is spent attempting to fix something for a browser that apparently only 4% or less of web surfers use...and most of that on this one page of a 30-40 page web.
I may just make a template of the key features on the page. When things get messed up because of all the cutting and pasting I must do, I'll start from scratch.
For now, until I have more of a need to learn html more extensively, I will just have struggle using FP in "normal" view.
Thanks all for your generous help.
Gail
Edited by - Gail on 03/13/2002 12:20:23
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 12:00:39
I actually have stared at the code a couple of more hours. Made a few discoveries and improvements (though I still haven't come up with a total fix):
I did find double and lots of extraneous code. Apparently FrontPage 2002 leaves this code in when I edit text. FP ignores the garble and the design looks fine. But Netscape refuses to accept it.
For example, I changed some text to Arial Condensed but a single space was left over in Verdana. Upon this discovery, I deleted the space and things much improved when viewing in the Netscape browser. Wasn’t an issue with IE.
I also found that when I went in and changed one letter from a lower case to upper, Netscape rejected the change. It totally whacked that one capital letter way down to its own line, separating itself from the rest of the word. It looked perfectly ok in IE.
To me, as much as this is utterly frustrating, it is also intriguing. I plan to start a new thread so, hopefully, more experienced users will provide some insight about how to avoid these problems in the first place.
If Netscape doesn't even allow me to make a simple edit in FP then, imho, its downhill user trend is well deserved.
By the way, in the "for what it's worth" department...
I highlighted a word in the problem text area when in "normal" FP view. I then clicked the "html" tab which diplays the highlighting. I tweaked and, through trial and error, was able to improve some things. I toggled between "normal" and "html" views to monitor my progress, ever mindful of that "save" menu.
Yes, even a little knowledge of html is better than none!
Edited by - Gail on 03/14/2002 12:17:29
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 12:21:02
Hello Gail! I've been following this thread since it started and have a suggestion for you. First go out and run your site through the W3C validation tool...
http://validator.w3.org/
Select windows-1252 (Western Europe) for the Character Encoding.
Select HTML 4.01 Transitional for the Document Type.
Now, find someone who knows the advanced features of FP and have them build a few templates for you. You've got way too many code errors to try and figure this out on your own. That site needs a rebuild if you plan on appealing to a majority of your visitors.
Without the rebuild, you will be gray very soon! There are just way too many FP specific attributes being used and its not going to look right in NN or Opera until you get rid of these and replace with more cross browser platform code.
There are also quite a few nesting problems and those will cause major issues with browsers other than IE. IE is just too forgiving.
Its a nicely laid out site, the concept that is, but it needs a professional in there to get it up to snuff. Sure, you can take the advice of the experts here but you are only applying band-aid fixes at the moment.
SEO Consultants Directory
http://www.seoconsultants.com
Edited by - pageoneresults on 03/14/2002 13:36:33
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 12:32:46
As a side note for all FP 2002 users, this new version is not as user friendly as the previous versions. There are some added features which will throw things out of whack if you are not aware of them. The border-collapse issue is a problem and the code that is generated is not compatible across all browsers. If you don't know how to control that feature, you end up with lots of border-collapse code that is not necessary.
FP creates too much propriety code. New users of the program are unaware of this until they start viewing the site in browsers other than IE. NN4+ is going to be your best HTML validator out there. It was very strict and almost followed the W3C guidelines to the "T". Opera and Mozilla are also great browsers to check html in. If the sites view fine in those two, then they will be fine in IE but not the other way around.
By the way, please don't use the FP rollover codes. They are laden with bloat and you can do the same thing with a simple style sheet using these attributes...
a:link{
text-decoration:underline;
color:#226099;
background:none repeat;
}
a:visited{
text-decoration:underline;
color:#226099;
background:none repeat;
}
a:hover{
text-decoration:none;
color:#005631;
background:#efefef;
}
a:active{
text-decoration:none;
color:#00ac62;
background:none repeat;
}
Its the hover element that most people are looking for when using FP rollovers for link text.
SEO Consultants Directory
http://www.seoconsultants.com
Edited by - pageoneresults on 03/14/2002 12:40:55
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 13:36:40
pageoneresults,
Thank you so much for your replies, suggestions and honesty.
To my surprise, I opened my email last night and someone had sent me a cleaned up version of the home page. Wow!
Your replies raise several questions for some like me...coming to web design with graphic experience (eg. Pagemaker, Publisher) not programming:
1- if 2002 poses such a problem for someone with little html experience, should they return to using 2000? As an aside, many of the creators of these web programs tout them as being easy to use. You know...WYSIWYG. This appears to be a deception or a delusion, or both.
2.a- is there a list of other FP specific attributes that one can refer to in order to learn the FP features to avoid?
2.b- if so, what would be the "cost" of not using them for html-challenged users of FP; in other words, will we be able to create attractive sites without using FP specific attributes?
3- if hiring a professional is not an option, what else do you suggest for someone like me?
btw, since your brought up gray hair, I will reluctantly admit that you can't make my gray hair, grayer. While I've taken courses in FrontPage...some claiming to be advanced but they were not...I do not intend to make a career study of this. It used to be fun and I’m trying to find out if there is a way, within my limited abilities, to make it so once again.
Thanks, gail
Edited by - Gail on 03/17/2002 13:51:37
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 13:44:31
Hi Gail, KUDOS to the one who sent you the cleaned up home page. I was going to take a shot at it this evening if time permitted and give you a starting template.
There is much more to rebuild other than the home page. I've found that working with the FP includes and having knowledge of basic html has been a big help in working with FP.
I'm on my way in to the office right now but will return later and try to answer your questions. There is a very long list of attributes not to use, my list that is, and I'll try to create a summary of those. Right off the top of my head, these are a no-no for me:
1. FP Borders
2. FP Navigation
3. FP Special Effects
I've just seen way too many problems when using those features and I really never did. I started off with using the FP Includes early in my design career and am glad I made the right choice.
If you want, take a look at the site in my signature. This is a new site still in beta testing but it will give you an idea of what FP is capable of if you know the right things.
Again, KUDOS to the person who sent you the cleanup. That may address the home page, now you have the rest of the pages to be concerned with.
SEO Consultants Directory
http://www.seoconsultants.com
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 13:56:02
quote:
1- if 2002 poses such a problem for someone with little html experience, should they return to using 2000? As an aside, many of the creators of these web programs tout them as being easy to use. You know...WYSIWYG. This appears to be a deception or a delusion, or both.
Let me address this one for you right now. Look first at who the creators are. In the case of FP, its Microsoft. What they fail to tell you is that the code some of their features generate is not compatible with browsers other than IE.
FP has received a black mark on its record since it was first introduced. Why, because many like yourself built web sites not realizing that the code it was generating was trash! But, there are ways to control the trash and that requires a little more than basic WYSIWYG knowledge. In this case, WYSIWYG refers to those viewing the site in IE as Microsoft thinks that is the only browser out there. Based on latest statistics, you might think that.
But, watch out! The tides are changing. With AOL's recent statement about canning IE in favor of Mozilla in its upcoming release of 8.0, this forum is going to get lots of new visitors who will be wondering why their FP sites don't view properly in AOL which will be using the Mozilla browser.
I am now on a mission to help educate FP users about the do's and dont's when it comes to building a site that will view properly in all browsers. If FP does not get on the ball and start programming valid code generation, then they will begin to lose loyal fans and new customers.
Since I've been using it since 1996, I have found just about every bug it has, except for the ones that are still in the woodwork. Since I've learned basic html, I don't have to use the special features and hand code them myself.
SEO Consultants Directory
http://www.seoconsultants.com
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 14:04:58
One of the first things any new or existing FP user should do is set their HTML preferences up. You can do this by going to...
Tools > Page Options > HTML Source
Select Reformat using the rules below.
Make sure you check Tag names are lowercase (this for future xml conversion)
Make sure you check Attribute names are lowercase (this for future xml conversion)
Make sure you uncheck Allow line breaks within tags (you don't want tags to be broken, this can cause issues with certain browsers)
I have my indents at 0 spaces, I hate the indents. I also have my right margin set at 1000 characters to prevent any wrapping in tags.
For new sites, I always start with my template page and make sure I have all my preferences assigned to that page. I make my template and drop in the navigation includes; top, left, right and bottom if applicable. Then I'm left with my content area. Each time I create a new page, I start with the template, do a save as, and then build the page. I do that for each page thereafter insuring that there is consistency from page to page within the site. Some sites I manage have multiple templates depending on the section they apply to.
This is just the beginning. There is much more to be done when developing and organizing an FP managed web site.
SEO Consultants Directory
http://www.seoconsultants.com
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 14:16:10
pageoneresults
<< Again, KUDOS to the person who sent you the cleanup. That may address the home page, now you have the rest of the pages to be concerned with. >>
Yes, KUDOS! (Hey, we need a smiley that represents a “big hug.”) But please know that I have no expectation of anyone creating “the rest of the pages.”
Many of you who so freely offer your help in these forums are professionals and deserve compensation. Unfortunately, with regard to the website we’ve been talking about, that is not an option at this time.
btw, the folks I do the web for think I walk on water…Outfront, a most humbling venue, keeps me in my place.
<<I am now on a mission to help educate…>>
And individuals like me are very, very grateful.
Gail
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/14/2002 14:46:28
Edited by - Gail on 03/17/2002 13:52:36
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davebukouricz
Posts: 300
From: Ma None
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/15/2002 20:09:29
Just as a side note. Having come up through the ranks starting with FP97 to now 2002, I have to tell you IMHO FP2002 is an outstanding product with many benefits over 2000. When's the last time you had to make a global change to 700 pages in a web site using FP2000? Just my two cents worth:)
***********************
ASP Rocks!
Dave
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tarheel
Posts: 422
From: Fresno CA USA
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/17/2002 2:42:49
I have had more than my share of problems with tables in Netscape and ended up having to just start over from a clean page. I never did find the problem/problems and it just disentegrated into a huge frustration. Sometimes you're better off just punting.
Several things: Netscape hates absolute positioning, and if you do any of that, it'll flip out. Watch nested tables, and pay particular attention to table widths and cell widths that conflict. IE, a cell width that exceeds the width of the table or the cell it which it is nested. These little things will drive Netscape crazy, and you definitely need an HTML validator. Go here for one I've used: http://www.htmlvalidator.com/ there are others, but this one is very good.
Plus, you should really, really, learn HTML if you're going to have success with FrontPage. FP takes on a mind of it's own at times, and you will have to be able to go in and correct it's schizoid results.
To Wit: I recently was made aware that my site yosemitefun.com was not viewable in NS 4.x, and I took a look, and sure enough, I had an open <body> tag. How did it go bad? Only Bill Gates knows...
BTW, not to burst your bubble, but I just looked in NS 4.7, at 11:45pm Saturday night (3/16) California time, and nothing showed at all. And your <body> tag was closed...
But, when viewed in IE it looked great! Good job! Dynamite site.
Phil
"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.
Edited by - tarheel on 03/17/2002 11:21:31
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/17/2002 9:11:56
Phil,
Thanks for the compliment about the site!
I've been sicker than a dawg for the last several days. Haven't even had a chance to upload the new page yet. Will get back to all this when my head clears.
gail
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Trouble with Tables in Netscape - 3/18/2002 10:10:35
quote:
pay particular attention to table widths and cell widths that conflict. IE, a cell width that exceeds the width of the table or the cell it which it is nested.
tarheel...I'm doing the best I can in this area but sometimes the table sizes seem to totally change on their own. And all that extraneous code, surely I don't purposely put it in...I hardly open the html tab (I know, I know).
I'm finding the nested tables really do cause problems so I'm going to avoid them in the future.
In the mean time, I've hired someone to walk me through making basic templates. I should learn a lot during that process rather than wing it alone.
I recently retook my allegedly "advanced" FrontPage course, and what they teach often conflicts with information rec'd in this forum. For example, to resize a table or cell, they simply suggest moving the border with the mouse cursor. Not one word about more precise measuring and setting pixel size.
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Printable Version 
I've tried the area making separate tables, then tried with separate cells; then tried merging the table so there are no cells. arrrrgh! 
