RE: China Adviser wrap-up

	Home Register Search Help Login

Sponsors

Shopping Cart Software
Ecommerce software integrated into Frontpage, Dreamweaver and Golive templates. No monthly fees and available in ASP and PHP versions.

Website Templates
We also have a wide selection of Dreamweaver, Expression Web and Frontpage templates as well as webmaster tools and CSS layouts.

Frontpage website templates
Creative Website Templates for FrontPage, Dreamweaver, Flash, SwishMax

Search Forums

Recent Posts

Todays Posts
Most Active posts
Posts since last visit
My Recent Posts
Mark posts read

RE: China Adviser wrap-up

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> Web Design >> Site Critiques >> RE: China Adviser wrap-up

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 1:48:33 As I carefully review the various posts and replies, I keep returning to “Ranglers” statements. I wonder to myself? There’s no doubt that advanced designers and webmasters can do just about anything that they desire with a web page! I suppose that more that one of them could crack a site and upload their own version of the index! There are many things that can be done, but do we do them, or even want to do them? We can run stop signs, but we don’t want to do that. We can steal our neighbor’s newspapers, but not many of us want to do that… The point is, what Webmaster-designer has any need or desire to abscond with images from other sites? Very few if any, I would guess… Firstly, no doubt they could create better images than, I, or most of the rest of us. Second, if any of you have ever blown up an image in PSP and tried to revise it, you know just how tedious it can be, a good designer can create their own and has no need for ours, which more likely than not wouldn’t fit their sites theme. Thirdly, Can you imagine a site being posted here and to have nearly everyone recognizing stolen images! And so on… Therefore, I doubt that many of us are worried about our mentors and other persons of talent, burning us! So, I ask, who is left for us to be suspicious of? It is probably those without skills. They, are whom, I don’t mind giving stumbling blocks to. If it is desired to use the R/C disabled, perhaps it should be temporarily removed when posting in the forum and then reapplied when finished… though it would entail some extra work. Does it matter what the message is in the R/C disabled box? Mine states, “Copyright 2002” Are some messages less offensive than others, or they all bad? As far as, what do I have on the site to be so important, that I am trying to protect it? It’s not mine, it’s my clients! That’s why I’ve paid good money to register and watermark an artists images. All in all, I don’t think it is…“Is the average user that doesn't build sites gonna steal from you?” More likely the in betweens! Those that don’t study, don’t train, don’t progress and would just as soon as ripoff as not. Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


PBailey Posts: 907 From: San Antonio, Texas USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 4:30:47 On the lighter side.....John! Didn't you mow that five acres last week! Paula So much to learn...... Edited by - PBailey on 05/05/2002 08:57:17 (in reply to Dompros)


abbeyvet Posts: 5095 From: Kilkenny Ireland Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 5:50:54 I have never understood the desire of some artists not to have images from their site taken. It is not like people are getting the actual artwork - they are getting a relatively small low resolution image of a piece of artwork that will look pretty poor if printed. I have done several sites for artists, on a few we have even added postcard scripts to encourage people to take and share images. The way I look at it is this. An artist puts their work on the internet because they want more people to see it and, hopefully, buy it. If people share the images more people see it. If you let them, encourage them, by making it easy they are even more likely to share them with the artists name attached. The bigger the pond the more likely it is to contain fish that want the bait. By making it difficult we may put off the inexperienced person who wanted to save an image to show their Auntie Jean who has a significant budget available to buy some large paintings for an office building. Or the person who longs to own an painting by the artist and just wants a little image to look at while they dream - till the day they can afford it. We will not really be able to put off those who want the image for nefarious reasons anyway, so it seems to me that the people we are preventing from taking images are the very ones we should be encouraging. And if others, who have no interest in buying the actual artwork, take a small image of it, so what? What exactly can they do with it that will be so damaging to the artist? Artists planning an exhibition are invariably insistent that the programme or brochure for the exhibition - and indeed posters, with their far larger reproductions - should contain really good quality images. I never caome accross one who was concerned that people might show the brochure to others, cut out the images and stick them on their wall or scan them into a computer. Katherine ++++++++++++++++++++++++ www.inkkdesign.com Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. Edited by - abbeyvet on 05/05/2002 06:02:02 (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 6:06:43 Greetings,Katherine Glad to hear from you! I know that you have authored artists sites, But this is my first http://www.tanimotoartisan.com And he is "scared to death". I'm going to copy your post and show it to him. Hopefuly it will reassure him. I would like to show him your sites that you mentioned, but can't remember the URL? I must say that your post and experiences have calmed and reassured me also! I guess that my anxiety comes from a lack of experience... I had no idea what to tell my client concerning the security of his artwork! As always, thanks very much for your wisdom. Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


john40004 Posts: 1346 From: Bardstown KY USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 8:57:17 Hi Paula, Yes, I mowed the grass last week, the week before that, etc. Unfortunately, it has this nasty tendency to want to keep growing. At this time of year its a never ending cycle and is actually cut twice a week. I do what I can during the week and the major cut on the weekend. It normally takes about six hours due to the fencelines, out-buildings and trees. The neighbors, all being farmers, continue to suggest sheep since we have the barn to keep them in. The dogs however, would likely kill them. Also knowing my wife and her love of animals, any that did survive would be brought into the house during the winter! Perhaps I could right-click them and e-mail them to Spooky. John Age has taught me the value of a hammer as to child-proof caps! (in reply to Dompros)


Mike54 Posts: 4782 Joined: 3/26/2001 From: Way Up Over Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 9:24:44 Bill Seper, Microsoft has made it very easy to get content from the web even without RC. All you need to do is import the site and search through it at your leasure for what you want. With a little care it may be hidden away but if you can find the URL, of an image let's say, it's available, to anyone with a copy of FP. Dompros, I understand your point and I'm sure only the unscrupulous would go through it. I just wanted to see if I could, sorry. Maybe it doesn't work More effort than it's worth. ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon. Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:25:55 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:29:37 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:33:49 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:34:50 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:37:51 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:38:21 Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 09:40:10 (in reply to Dompros)


Bill Seper Posts: 416 From: USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 11:31:09 When it comes right down to it I suppose it's only on the web itself that we have to be concerned with our images showing up. As Abbey said, they'll look terrible when printed out so the only use someone could make of stolen images would be to use them on their own web pages. That said, I guess the best route to take if they're images your concerned about showing up on other webs would be to watermark them. I had mentioned before in another thread that you could "lock" them in a flash movie file for viewing and then the only way someone could steal them would be if they copied a screen shot of the flash file and pasted into a graphics program where they could then cut out the picture itself and reuse it. So...there are two concerns left I believe: 1. We need to devise a way to disable screen shots. 2: We need to either find a way to somehow make the flash file delete itself from the Temp folder upon viewing or something like that which would stop someone from taking a screen shot of it off the web. Doesn't RealAudio have a way of streaming music files so that they don't create a Temp file? At least I think they do. If so, could that idea be implemented to work with Flash files? Have I covered the only two bases left? Are there more? Any ideas as to how to do the two things I mentioned? Even though it's not that big a deal to me I think it would be a fun project for us to work on. (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 14:39:38 I'm beginning to see the light! Excellent demonstration, Mike! It taught me plenty... For one thing, the painting image has been optimized to 10 quality, and it dosen't look so good in this copy, not nearly as stunning as the original. Adding up the input from you, AbbyVet and the other members that have responded, I'm thinking of going in the other direction and inserting a go ahead... "All graphics are free on this site". Sure would eliminate a lot of hassle. I certainly don't want to spend the rest of my life guarding images! (stm) OK, I'm off to my FTP program to upload my revised sites! Regards, and much thanks for your education of me! My thinking has done a complete turnabout. Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 14:48:53 Bill, After reading your post, I'm wondering just how much effort It would take to continue with this? For my part, The technicality of it is beyond my abilities and training! It appears that the members that may have the abilities have accepted the realities that be... Let's see if there is any futher input about this. Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Mike54 Posts: 4782 Joined: 3/26/2001 From: Way Up Over Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 15:07:51 Hi Dompros, You're right of course, I'm sure the copy above doesn't do justice to the original but the image at somewhereIcantsaywhere.jpg can be stretched without losing much. you could have quite a nice copy if you wanted to. I think Bills idea about using watermarks is a good one. ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon. Sorry. I put it badly. What I meant was that if someone just wanted a nice copy it would be easy to get. The original obviously would stand alone. Edited by - Mike54 on 05/05/2002 15:14:33 I was going through the post again to see if I could find what the hoopla is about and didn't want to be accused of unkindly posting an image url. Edited by - Mike54 on 05/06/2002 16:05:57 (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 15:21:18 Hi, Mike I signed up and paid for a 100 watermark registration, but only marked one, because I got kinda discouraged and wondered if marking was worth the effort? I guess I'd better go ahead and mark 'em. Regards and thanks alot for your time and effort in doing this, no doubt that many members learned alot from the input you, other members and moddy's have given! To all of you... Your unmet friend, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Mike54 Posts: 4782 Joined: 3/26/2001 From: Way Up Over Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 15:53:19 Robert, Forgive my ignorance. What exactly are you "paying" for? Why can't you just add something to the image to make it undesireable? Patience - I seem to be having trouble inserting images ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon. (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 17:01:10 OK, It's with Digimark, an internet company, that registers and records the image. Classifies it... With. A unique Creator ID and, restricted use- or, do not copy- or, adult content. Records the copyright years, allows personalization of your own mark. Allows, to set the durability and visability of the watermark, from 1 to 16. Provides a download for a watermark reader. Tracks the hits to the image and where they are going and to who. They claim to be able to track anyone and notify them that have accessed a restriced, copyrighted image, but that remains to be seen, I don't have any personal knowledge that they can do that. If anyone is interested, I'll find out more. Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Bill Seper Posts: 416 From: USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 19:50:11 I think when most of us are talking about watermarking we're simply putting something akin to an artists signature on a painting. It could be a small logo or a couple of words (artist's name for instance) or just any old thing that's small and unobtrusive but yet will stand out as being "yours" if it shows up on someone else's site. Logos work well. (in reply to Dompros)


LB Posts: 5551 From: Montana USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 20:18:36 A digital watermark is an excellent way to protect your images. For the visual watermark, simply using the artist's name or initials would be nice. Linda (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/5/2002 23:32:53 Simply inserting a signature or logo is not true watermarking, and can be removed easily with any good graphics program, such as PaintShop Pro, or Photo Shop. All that one must do is to zoom in on the image at 10 or 15 times and the pixs are so large, that it's as working on a checker board. When a watermarked sheet of paper is held up towards light the watermark shows and cannot be removed. A digital watermark can't be removed nor altered. Although it may be invisable to the naked eye it will show instantly using a digital watermark reader. The Artist that I'm working for has a signature on his work, I tested, and removed the sig' immediatly. I think that, http://www.Digimarc.com has a free light edition that doesn't trace marks but is still very good. I beleive that you can get 100 free registered marks, for a first time sign up! OK, bye for now, Going to go have pizza. Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Swirl Posts: 2708 From: Cincinnati, Ohio USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 8:58:08 Hello Robert Stimulating post as always. I guess we're damned if we "do" and damned if we "don't", reply to your posts. I thought tterrific was doing a great job answering your questions and didn't see any reason to respond further. Sorry you found “our” lack of response offensive. Quite frankly, I found your comments offensive, after all, we (the mods) aren’t paid for this, we do it because we love FrontPage and enjoy helping others learn to build better web sites. If you don’t like the advice you get here, you are free to ignore any and all of it. We (you and I) have been down this path before and I came very close to quitting the board because of you. You (srchili) caught me on a very bad day and when I read your post on that particular day (as I recall you also reported me to Thomas), I swore I’d never respond to you again. This time I can’t remain silent! Your comments were just plain rude. Having said that… The only way to truly prevent someone from copying something from your site is to not put it on the Internet in the first place. The folks who steal site designs will find a way to do it with or without the R/C disabled. Fortunately, my sites are all internal (Intranet) so I don't have that worry, but disabling a basic function to prevent a tiny percentage of site visitors from stealing your site design seems a like overkill to me. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. Swirl Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way. (in reply to Dompros)


erinatkins Posts: 3072 From: Mechanicsville VA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 10:21:40 Swirl, You said it very well. I thought about adding my opinions a few times but I was afraid of what the response would be. Erin (in reply to Dompros)


Paula Posts: 394 From: Morrow, Georgia, USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 13:30:50 Swirl, Well said! Paula The more I learn the less I seem to know. (in reply to Dompros)


tterrifc Posts: 690 From: Riverside CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 13:50:21 This thread was most educational for me. I truly enjoy reading all of the threads because I still have so much to learn. Thanks to all. And, by the way, I am a happy female. Terry Ellis http://www.protectall.com (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 15:30:21 Glad to hear from you all, Swirl, Erin and Paula, Your points are respected, just as mine should be, but apparently are not! The very first sentence of the post that I believe you are referring to, “You see, every forum has self proclaimed experts and gurus”, would eliminate you ladies, as subjects, of the observation… Perhaps you are indignant on behalf of someone else? Why would a generalized observation about forums in general be considered rude, since I’ve said nothing about any individual member or Moderator? Why any of you are hostile, I can’t really understand… It seems that, for any of you to be angry, you must have put yourselves into the picture, and think that the post is about you or your friends! I never make personal remarks towards a person, unless they are derogatory towards me, and mine are always in self-defense. I assure, the 3 of you that none of you were in mind when I posted! Swirl, I really can’t imagine, that you would consider quitting something that you love and are proud of accomplishing, because of the opinions of a stranger on the other side of the planet? If anyone, gives me suggestions or ideas that will bring about changes in me or with that things that I’m doing with my job, I expect to be able to discuss it with them, And why not? Why is then, that if suggestion are given in a forum, it’s rude to reply, and ask for the reason why, to ask for a foundation for their beliefs, and to expect answers? Why is it that, if one does not agree, they must “Shut up and go away”? Who made up these rules? I don’t see them posted? I want to understand why, it was said, I want to know why you believe in that, I want to understand what is being done and for what reason! I’m here to learn something, for crimminy sakes! Why is it that, I have said nothing about any of you, or any moderator, or any member, you are making personal remarks toward me? Erin, is that really true?… that you decline to comment out of fear of the response? Do any of you really want to be a person that would deny another, to be able to think, to express themselves, to have ideas and opinions, simply because their thoughts don’t agree with yours? I’ve observer various forums for about 4 years and I stand by my views. that what I stated in my post does occur. There is no one in this forum that has been personally accused of anything! If any of you think that it is you, then you have put it upon yourselves… I would suggest that we all try to interact in a mature and peaceful environment. Refrain from the personal derogatory barbs. I can’t imagine that anyone in this forum or anywhere else for that matter is so pure that they are above the observations of others. Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 16:19:23 OK, Back to the subject... The replies to my lack of understanding about the right click usage, hatered of disabling it, and so on, have allowed me to understand the importance of just what the right click is all about. I had no idea,not a clue! As to what R/C ment to various people, I doubt that most of the rest of us did either! In fact the only thing that I ever used it for, was to view source. So now that I've been educated, I've added this line to the bottom of http://www.chinaadviser.com All graphics on this site are free for your usage, no strings attached! See, a little,interaction and various points of view, can work, even on a hard head such as my self... Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Mike54 Posts: 4782 Joined: 3/26/2001 From: Way Up Over Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 17:05:19 quote: A negative response may be distastful, but Gee-Whiz, it's not the end of life as we know it! We all know that everyone doesn't like everything about us, But we go on with life. The old saying" You can't please everyone." That shouldn't stop us from interacting with one another... We grow, We change directions, We live! That's what "discussion" is all about. It's not that everytime someone is right or wrong just that there are differing viewpoints. Here, in the Outfront, one should not fear expressing an opinion or even disagreeing with one. Sometimes a member can irritate (and I'm not pointing in any direction - please) but I have three kids, they have the capacity to hate each other over absolutely nothing and love each other for exactly the same reason. I hope something about that made sense, I've gone through this post top to bottom and back again, thought and rethought and written and rewritten this response. Parts of the thread are just a post with regular responses, other parts are all but venomous. Too much sensitivity as far as I can tell. ah reckon, tharfo'e ah's, ah reckon. (in reply to Dompros)


Andy from Spain Posts: 922 From: Ipswich Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 18:17:33 quote: You see, Every forum has self proclaimed experts and gurus. These self appointed leaders, institute their own rules, rules that are not required by the forum itself. Some of them cross over to other forums to copy what other pundits are doing to control the membership, and modify their authoritative, prescribed rules for conduct, to their own needs. Generally, the head "Sage what's in charge", will impose rules based on the foundation, "what you are doing annoys me"! This will be followed by, "if you do it again, you will no longer exist, I and my clique will ignore you. Their silence speaks volumes to their smallness! It is a very tiny person with a very large Ego that uses this as a motive for their conduct. So, why did you feel it necessary to post this to a thread that up until then was full of friendly help? It doesn't matter who it was directed at, fact is it was confrontational (again) and completely out of context, and certainly more annoying than not being allowed to right click on your site. Cheers Andy (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 18:53:53 I don't beleive that it's out of context at all, but directly to a given point.. Here is why. No one should be asked, directed, told, informed, ordered or by any other method,to make any changes, without recourse. Unless they are in fear of their job, life or such and such. Most certainly, simply because it irritates, some one that has placed them selves above inquirery. I certainly was not pointing towards to Terry, and she knows that. Who is it, that says, this is the way to do it, if you don't like it, keep quite, or I'll never speak to you again nor will my supporters. If you pose a question to me concerning my statements, I will answer, readily, and with thoughtful replies. I feel that is my responsability, born of respect for you and everyone in Outfront. The aforementioned that you refer to, are not just found in forums, but within human societies through out the world, regardless of culture, language, point in history or otherwise. Found in kindergarten, highschool, college, corporations, government, you name it. Do you really believe that this subject can't be mentioned here? A few of you folks act as you're being profiled! Who said it was a statement about any of you? Any of you which are offended,it is because you choose to be offended. You may also choose not to be offended, As I'm not offended by any of you. I'll tell you what's offensive... Posting a members name, phone # and address. Making false accusations. By the way, I come around every few months, not to cause trouble, but that's about how long it takes, for me to R&D a site for its first draft. I can reassure, most of you by this,concerning me... I ain't nothin', I ain't never been nothin' and I ain't never gonna be nothin'. So why get upset over nothin'? Regards, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


john40004 Posts: 1346 From: Bardstown KY USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 21:24:56 Hi Folks, http://www.angermgmt.com/ http://www.adv-leadership-grp.com/programs/evaluations/feelings.htm http://www.toad.net/~stpeters/Stories/lifepri.html John Age has taught me the value of a hammer as to child-proof caps! (in reply to Dompros)


jatinww Posts: 30 From: Walla Walla, WA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 22:30:10 Robert, I wonder if you really understand how abrasive you come across. In your profile you describe yourself as an iron dragon. I found some of the of the characteristics that you describe interesting. Particularly, "He is inflexible, unbending, and combative." "He gives little regard to the feelings of others. This ruthlessness can result in a rapid rise to a position of authority, but often at the cost of destroying important relationships. It is futile to attempt to convince him that certain things are simply undoable." "The Dragon person is self confident and impulsive and consequently does not always listen to the advice of others" "He enjoys being in command and like an emperor holding court he eliminates obstacles until success is his." Just my opinion. (in reply to Dompros)


Shirley Posts: 3126 Joined: 1/8/1999 From: Omaha, Ne USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 22:33:38 quote: The very first sentence of the post that I believe you are referring to, “You see, every forum has self proclaimed experts and gurus”, would eliminate you ladies, as subjects, of the observation… Excuse me????? Ladies most certainly can be and are experts and gurus. I hope that is not what you meant by that remark. Shirley cmycat.com Money Tree Web Design Omaha Homes Online (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 22:47:01 Of course not Shirley, It was the self appointed part! You and all of the other monitors are authorized, appreciated, respected integral part of this forum. It's amazing how many can skip over my positive comments, looking for something to throw at me! Your unmet friend, Robert "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)


Dompros Posts: 161 Joined: 2/14/2002 From: CA USA Status: offline	RE: China Adviser wrap-up - 5/6/2002 23:19:53 Well that's my birthsign, I doubt that I can be held responsible for that, just as you aren't for yours. That's not my description, It's from the chinese. You understand I'm not abrasive to everyone, right? Is it abrasive to you? If so, just what part, all or some? You know what is abrasive to me? People attempting to turn a truthful observation into somthing bad! If you want to make a comment, why don't you take apart my observations and show me up for a liar, or some other description, pick out anyone that you like. Am I wrong in what I say, or is it that you and others don't care for my usage of the english language? Deny the obvious on the grounds that you don't like the speakers voice, it's irritating. The next remarks posted, more than likly will be from someone stating that I'm ranting and raving! Finally, Who cares? Why do you? Is this somthing personal to you? This is more or less right on the money. I'm bad 'cause I'm irritating. So, What... No one cares, go down to your local park and tell everyone you meet, that you don't like Robert, cause he's abrasive and irritating. Good Lord why don't you people let it go? Ludicrous, denial of the obvious. "Lung Tik Chuan Ren" The sign of the Dragon (in reply to Dompros)