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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
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Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 11:22:04
Hi!
I wanted to pick up on this subject which is touched upon in another area. I'm trying to more fully understand how and why all that extraneous html code appears for those of us who rely on FrontPage, rather than hand-coding html, to design webs.
More importantly, how does someone know which code to delete? Is there a list somewhere? Some of the extraneous code appears to be related to styles. Should one avoid them completely and, if so, does control of design get tossed out the window for html-challenged folk like me?!
To date, I've only thought about compatibility in terms of how pages "look" in various browsers. But have I in fact missed the main point?
For example, someone suggested I delete AutoNumbers. Well, removing them doesn't change the appearance of a page so there must be another reason for the suggestion.
Say two of us created the same web page with exact content including text, graphics, keywords, etc. I use FrontPage. You hand code. Visually the final products are indistinguishable. But in reality, yours is technically better. Why? Will there be significant differences in page loading time; ability for a search engine to "pick up" key words; anything else?
Forgive my verbosity but I've been struggling with this for some time now.
Thanks, gail
Btw, I downloaded TidyGUI. greek to me!
Edited by - _gail on 06/10/2002 11:23:32
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bobby
Posts: 11394
Joined: 8/15/1969
From: Seattle WA USA
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RE: Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 11:42:35
Hey Gail...
I think the main differences are that FP will include a DIV tag in places where it may or may not be necessary, same with the P tag.
I know that in a lot of cases FP will fail to close a tag (usually the P tag) or leave out some other piece of code that doesn't hinder the function of the page when viewed in IE.
NN may balk at a page if a tag is left open...
I haven't noticed a huge difference in the html code on a FP page vs. on that I hand code... except for FP does a nice job of indenting to make the code easier to follow sometimes, and the color change from html to asp etc. is a nice touch!
I have noticed that since I started using CSS more and more, the code on a page is greatly diminished, since there arent element definitions everywhere. My pages used to get clogged up with color:, font-family:, etc.
You could check out http://www.wdvl.com or http://www.w3schools.com for some html tag lists, properties, and basic syntax (although with html there is almost NO syntax...
Front Page drops extra code here and there because (me thinkst) it cannot think for itself. When FP was programmed, the friendly folks at Microsoft had to decide what the best all-around way would be to place tags.
Since in most cases the extra code won't hinder a page they left it in for the times when it might be necessary.
As far as page load time, a few extra characters on your page aren't going to slow you down much... the <div> tag, for example, is a total of 40 bites... less than the code for an empty space!
(Whoever came up with a 6 digit code for an empty, blank space in html ..!?)
quote:
Forgive my verbosity but I've been struggling with this for some time now.
Forgive mine, as I am overloaded on caffine at the moment...
_____
"There is too much apathy in the world, but I don't care."
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Gil
Posts: 7533
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
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RE: Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 12:41:17
quote:
I wanted to pick up on this subject which is touched upon in another area. I'm trying to more fully understand how and why all that extraneous html code appears for those of us who rely on FrontPage, rather than hand-coding html, to design webs.
More importantly, how does someone know which code to delete?
Learn HTML?
quote:
Is there a list somewhere? Some of the extraneous code appears to be related to styles. Should one avoid them completely and, if so, does control of design get tossed out the window for html-challenged folk like me?!
I think a lot of people forget that the purpose of a web site is to provide information - therefore "design" has to be second to correct serving of that information.
Don't get me wrong - I think style & design are important, just as long as it doesn't get in the way of delivering information.
quote:
To date, I've only thought about compatibility in terms of how pages "look" in various browsers. But have I in fact missed the main point?
For example, someone suggested I delete AutoNumbers. Well, removing them doesn't change the appearance of a page so there must be another reason for the suggestion.
Say two of us created the same web page with exact content including text, graphics, keywords, etc. I use FrontPage. You hand code. Visually the final products are indistinguishable. But in reality, yours is technically better. Why? Will there be significant differences in page loading time; ability for a search engine to "pick up" key words; anything else?
There will be some difference in loading time, but not enough to worry about. For myself, it's more of wanting things done "right".
But, what everyone needs to consider - as we move forward and HTML is replaced with XML, the need to be correct will be much more important. Even IE will not be able to be so "sloppy" at reading code. In the future not having a closing tag </P> will not be overlooked. Why wait 'til then to start doing it right?
I'm sure I'm not the only one that remembers when Netscape (before there was an IE) 2.xx didn't care if there was a </HTML> tag or not - When 3.0 was released thousnads of web pages didn't work (blank!) because 3.0 did require a </HTML> tag.
quote:
Forgive my verbosity but I've been struggling with this for some time now.
Nothing to forgive - you asked a very good question 
quote:
Btw, I downloaded TidyGUI. greek to me!
Great little app...
Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our Specialty
Find a Web Professional
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Gil
Posts: 7533
From: North Carolina, USA
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RE: Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 13:23:43
quote:
Will there be a "natural" transition from HTML to XML? I know little about XML and am wondering if taking a course in HTML will be a moot point.
Oh it's going to take a few years. I think "most" developers will continue to use HTML for a long time. It's the large corporate sites that will be moving to HTML first, especially the Extranets.
Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our Specialty
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
Status: offline
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RE: Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 16:01:23
The need for learning HTML is unaffected by the coming of XML - you really have no hope of understanding XML without having a good grasp of HTML first.
I really, honestly, do not believe it is necessary to take a course to learn HTML. It is way easier to learn than you think, actually you have very likely absorbed some already. There are loads of really good tutorials online. Here are two for starters, though you are probably best to pick one initially and stick to it until you have a grasp of the basics.
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primers/basics.html - this is the very basics, once you have grasped them there is loads more at this site.
http://www.trainingtools.com/online/html/index.htm - this is a full course that you can download and follow offline also. Includes exercises which are very useful for confirming to yourself that you really have 'got it'.
While I do think that anyone creating web pages, no matter what tools they use, needs to learn some HTML, I don't think there is much to recommend going to the bother of writing code from scratch. Using an editor - FrontPage or whatever you fancy - makes it quicker and easier. That's a bit like washing your clothes by hand when you have a machine in the corner. You could do it, but why would you?
It really does help though to know what the editor is doing, not only so that you can make whatever changes you need to to the code it produces but so that you can get the best from it.
Katherine
++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.inkkdesign.com
Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
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_gail
Posts: 2876
From: So FL
Status: offline
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RE: Extraneous code: compatibility & what else? - 6/10/2002 16:57:52
quote:
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primers/basics.html
^ I actually found this on my own this morning and took the first section. But I've just looked at www.trainingtools.com/online/html and think I'd much prefer to study from a printed format with pen and pencil in hand.
quote:
That's a bit like washing your clothes by hand when you have a machine in the corner. You could do it, but why would you?
Now here's an illustration I can readily identify with!!!
To be honest, I've been procrastinating too long about this. As an aside, during the course of several days a few weeks ago, I spent a total of about seven hours trying to get rid of some blue lines, of all things, on a web page. Took me all that time to figure out I had to change the color of tables so the blue page backgound didn't seep through. Guess one can't fault me for perseverance but imagine where I'd be if I had used those seven hours studying html.
I suppose I'm sharing all this to hopefully spare others some grief who, like me, erroneously believe they can solely rely on an editor.
I'm sure I'll be back with questions, but they won't be asking if I need to learn html.
Thanks again all, gail
Edited by - _gail on 06/10/2002 17:06:02
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