As a desktop / support person, everyone I have seen not at last up to semi -new standards really don't know / use their PC's for much of anything..much less web browse
They are usually the ppl that refuse to learn Computers etc etc etc..

So why as web designers must we cater to them.

There are points I do understand about it ..
yet if u design a site to work w IE 3.01 at 640x480.. aren't u in a sense depriving
90% of ur viewers?

Also why is is such a pain in the arse to make a 1 site (page) look the exct same in IE and NN...????

Plz help me undrstand!!!!

PS- I personally like IE better..
so netscape ppl i link em to MS Update site to get newest IE

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:
Can someone Plz explain to me why
90% of web designers are so worried about
ppl usin such OLD technology!!!

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quote:

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So why as web designers must we cater to them.

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quote:

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There are points I do understand about it ..
yet if u design a site to work w IE 3.01 at 640x480.. aren't u in a sense depriving
90% of ur viewers?

---

quote:

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Also why is is such a pain in the arse to make a 1 site (page) look the exct same in IE and NN...????

---

quote:

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Plz help me undrstand!!!!

PS- I personally like IE better..
so netscape ppl i link em to MS Update site to get newest IE

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Hmmm, so you are saying "I don't care about my visitors preferences, they can cater to mine or else" ?

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

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Because the other 10% don't know any better?

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Real informative..thnks

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We DON'T - only if we care about the content of the site actually reaching the most people.

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Again Real informative..thnks

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Nope! Why would a correctly developed web site (that works on ALL browsers) deprive any one?

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Ah 2 words... "Dynamic Content"

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I didn't know it was a 'pain in the %$^$'??

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Ah as I read here and other places it supposedly is

So all in all you really had no point(s) to post..just wanted to flame me...
Thnks
However as topic says "Be a beginner w No fear" or somethin to that effect..
but I guess u forgot about that part!!!
******************************************

Now can someone intelligently explain these ?'s for me ..

thnks in advance

[This message has been edited by EzSnake (edited 10-20-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:

Ah as I read here and other places it supposedly is

So all in all you really had no point(s) to post..just wanted to flame me...
Thnks

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Sorry if you took my post as a "flame"? It was not intended that way at all.

quote:

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However as topic says "Be a beginner w No fear" or somethin to that effect..
but I guess u forgot about that part!!!
******************************************

Now can someone intelligently explain these ?'s for me ..

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• Professional web developers worry about people being able to access their sites because that is the job of a web developer. The entire concept of the WWW is 100% accessability. You make reference to "old technology", well I've developed ecommerce sites targeted at an audience that more than likely will not have the "latest & greaterst" technology, but the client still needs those people to be able to shop at his/her site. My comment about the "other 10%" refered to those designers that do not care if the site is accessable to anyone other than theirselves.
  
• My comment of "We don't" was simply a response to your question - what offend you?
  
• "Dynamic Content"? I don't understand this comment. Web sites have been serving dynamic content for years with complete accessability for NN2 / IE3 browsers (and up)? Dynamic content using standard web processes is not a new concept.
  
• I can't comment on what you have read about it being difficult to adhere to WWW standards, but I've not experienced it.
  

Again, I had no intention of "Flaming" anyone - just trying to point out that your fears are unfounded. Use the tools you prefer (Frontpage, Dreamweaver, Homesite, etc.) and test in a variety of browsers & screen settings and you'll find it isn't difficult at all.

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Also why is is such a pain in the arse to make a 1 site (page) look the exct same in IE and NN...????

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"Exact" isn't possible - they are two different browsers and there will always be differences. But close and more important, 100% accessable is not hard at all...

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

quote:

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Can someone Plz explain to me why
90% of web designers are so worried about
ppl usin such OLD technology!!!

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Depends what you call old. There are lots of people who for various reasons do not wish to or are unable to keep up with changing technology. It also depends on your site. If you have some idea of the profile of traffic visiting say an old version or a similar site then you will be able to make a descision as to how far back to support.

Designers are obliged to at least consider all (or at least the vast majority) of their potential users. This is particularly so when they are being paid to design the site, if it is a personal site you are of course free to support whoevr you like and hang the rest.

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if u design a site to work w IE 3.01 at 640x480.. aren't u in a sense depriving
90% of ur viewers?

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It's a choice. Many people (myself included) go no further back than version 4X of the two main browsers, though I do make sure that users of older browsers at least see something useful. Many people are still using small monitors and screens and by using design techniques, such as tables and/or pages that expand and contract according to the users screen can cater to a majority of screen sizes and resolutions.

However using techniques that are only available to the latest and greatest computers and browsers would lose you an awful lot of users. Aside from those who cannot see them, there are those who choose not to. If you do design for high end users it is essential (again, if you are being paid - if it is your own site make your own decisions) to provide an alternative for the others. My view of this is sincve you have to provide the alternative why bther with the other site at all.

Dynamic content is not excluded in any way by catering for older browsers. Many techniques for producing daynamic content result in the production of pure html pages - it is the server that needs to be equipped, not the user. Flash may be - but then a lot of people do not have flash, choose not to use it for reasons of speed or whatever or dislike flash sites in certian circumstances. So if you use Flash you again need to provide a second site to cater for these people.

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Also why is is such a pain in the arse to make a 1 site (page) look the exct same in IE and NN...????

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Two points here. It is not really that difficult but it does mean you have to learn at least somethign about HTML, about css and about the way the different browsers and the different versions of those browsers behave. Knowng this sort of stuff is essential basic knowledge for anyone selling their services as a web designer. It can be tricky to get FrontPage to produce browser compatible pages unless you are careful, know what is possible and work within those limitations.

The second point is getting too hung up on things looking the same. Tehre will ALWAYS be wide variation in the way your site is seen, depending on the computer the user has (PC, Mac, Laptop etc) the preferences they set in their browser (resolution, text size, window size etc) and several other factors. All you need to do is ensure it is celar and useabel in the browsers you are designing for.

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so netscape ppl i link em to MS Update site to get newest IE

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People who use netscape, and older versions of any browser, for the most part do so by choice. After all they could have downloaded a free new and shiny one any time they liked. You might jsut as well put a link saying 'Leave my site forever'.

The overall thing to remember is that if you are designing a site for yourself you can do whatever you like. If someone is paying you to design a site there is an assumtion, unless otherwise stated, that the site will be cross browser compatible and useable by the vast majority of people. If someone hires a web designer that is the least they can expect.

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

[This message has been edited by abbeyvet (edited 10-20-2001).]

Sorry I took your post as a "flame"
Short smart aleck like answers made me feel
like i asked the st00pidist ?'s u ever seen
(which may be )

Maybe my whole "not understanding" is
based upon fact I have never had to worry about designin for someone else.. and the type's I have, have been more or less advanced users.

I appreciate the advice..

ps-that whole netscape link thing...
Even I would never think of puttin that onto a "professional" site...only a stupid lil site like the online game clan site I'm doing

For example many busy people looking for information surf with images off. Loads of people chose not to bother with Flash. Loads of people like their old browsers and have made a decision to stay with them - by definition they have been hanging around the internet for ages and may be very 'advanced'.

That is not to forget those using text only browsers or other specially conifgures browsers because they are blind or have some sort of a disability.

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:
Thank You..

Sorry I took your post as a "flame"
Short smart aleck like answers made me feel
like i asked the st00pidist ?'s u ever seen
(which may be )

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quote:

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Maybe my whole "not understanding" is
based upon fact I have never had to worry about designin for someone else.. and the type's I have, have been more or less advanced users.

I appreciate the advice..

ps-that whole netscape link thing...
Even I would never think of puttin that onto a "professional" site...only a stupid lil site like the online game clan site I'm doing

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Just to add to abbeyvet's reply: At my "day job" I am writing code (Unibasic/unidata) on a dumb terminal to brand new $35,000.00 Sun server - the only browser installed is Lynx (if you don't know lynx, it's a text only browser - no graphics, no javascript, no Flash, etc.). Does that make my set up "old technology"?

After many years in the advertising biz, I still say, "Design for your target audience".

------------------
Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

JK

I meant that older browsers cant handle
newer kewl features in html..
Howerver I guess if you design for one of those browsers, you wont be adding things to pages it cannot use

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:
LOL Yes u are in ancient history!!!!

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I meant that older browsers cant handle
newer kewl features in html..
Howerver I guess if you design for one of those browsers, you wont be adding things to pages it cannot use

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Older browsers?

BTW, the company I work for has 22,000 desktops worlwide and not a one can see a Flash movie - it's a security issue

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:
JK

I meant that older browsers cant handle
newer kewl features in html..

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Lynx is used by security conscious corporations and also by people who just want a quick browser to get information and not all the extras. There are also people using "popular" browsers that turn off graphics, javascripts, flash, etc.

Here's an article by a Lynx user, although the points made are good to keep in mind for many users beyond Lynx. http://world.std.com/~adamg/manifesto.html

quote:

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Originally posted by EzSnake:
However I guess if you design for one of those browsers, you wont be adding things to pages it cannot use

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You don't need to SKIP using these extras... but the site should be usable without them. Run your site through a validator like www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html

Lynx is just one portion of the "minority market", but once you start keeping these tips in mind, you'll be on your way to a much more accessible site.

As Gil said, knowing your target market is the key.... but, personally, if I was targeting a Flash user market with an all-flash site I would still consider having an alternate for other users and search engines, even if it's just a brief overview with contact information. Since they aren't interested in what they aren't seeing, no need to mention what they're missing out on.

Linda

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Frontpage Web Templates

So why as web designers must we cater to them.

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We DON'T - only if we care about the content of the site actually reaching the most people.

quoted from above - just to keep in mind that all of this is revolving around this statement... none of this really does matter unless you are trying to reach most of the people that you possibly can.