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pageoneresults
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RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 20:55:33
> Common sense for a small business owner is if I have regular work coming in and the standard in the web design industry is to charge even $50.00 an hour, I’ll just hire a full time in house web designer as an employee for a lot less per hour.
Not in California you won' t. When you add up all the additional costs associated with an employee within your own company, it may not be cost effective. Plus you are going to have turnover and ongoing training. Take all that into consideration and $50.00 per hour is peanuts!
Many people fail to look at all the hidden costs associated with an employee. Many companies have gotten smarter and now outsource various tasks, web design being one of them. If all you are looking for is data entry, then that is an entirely different situation, that is not web development, that is content management.
As mentioned above, experience will play a role in the costs associated with web development. Myself and many others here can perform development tasks in the fraction of the time a beginner would take. So if it takes the beginner 6 hours to figure something out at $10.00 per hour, and it takes a professional 1 hour to do the same thing at $50.00 per hour, you just saved $10.00!
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Gil
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RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 22:01:09
Good point, Pageone - An inexperienced $10/hour could very well cost more than a " pro" at $50/hour.
Of course when I go to http://www.streamingsun.com and get a blank page telling me I need a plugin to get in, I have to wonder about the professionalism [:' (]
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jryan
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RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 22:41:48
I agree with you that there are many other expenses in regards to hiring an employee. But, there are also greater advantages to having an in house web designer.
For example if I have an employee that I pay $30,000 a year to work in house and have to pay all the extras for having that employee I’ll be generous and add $10,000 more a year in payroll tax, unemployment insurance and medical etc. So let’s just round it off to $40,000 a year.
It’s all relevant to your accounts receivable. If I have $100,000 a year in accounts receivable I have a gross profit of $60,000 a year. In addition I have a full time web designer to do all the work on the corporate sites and or any other work I have related to their abilities.
So, if I have 1 customer who requires 10 hours of work at $50.00 per hour that’s $500.00 for one job. This of course is before I see a penny profit.
Now if I had just 1 customer a day over 5 days that required 10 hours of work my weekly expense would be $2,500 a week in accounts payable. No profit made yet.
My weekly expense for payroll even with all the extra expenses at $40,000 per year is only $769.00 per week. This salary works out to $19.22 an hour for a 40 hour week.
So, in this example a small business needs to have 1 customer a day with an average of 10 hours work coming in to cover that payroll and make a gross profit of $1,731 per week.
Your example is only valid if the business has little to no business coming in to justify paying on as needed bases to avoid payroll.
If anyone thinks I couldn’t hire a darn good web designer for $30,000 a year think again. I have no doubt that if I put an ad in the local paper for an in house web designer starting pay at $30,000 a year plus benefits don’t think for a second I wouldn’t find very good web designer.
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jryan
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RE: RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 22:45:32
You’re a web designer and you don’t have a plug in for flash? And you talk about professionalism? By the way I’m not a web page designer, and the page is from OutFront.
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jryan
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RE: RE: RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 22:49:30
P.S. Gil, if you were any kind of professional web designer and noticed that someone’s page might have a problem, rather then calling them unprofessional you might consider approaching them to correct the problem. But then again you just proved that your far from professional.
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
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RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 23:02:41
> For example if I have an employee that I pay $30,000 a year to work in house and have to pay all the extras for having that employee I’ll be generous and add $10,000 more a year in payroll tax, unemployment insurance and medical etc. So let’s just round it off to $40,000 a year.
I' ll assume that you are in a State where the cost of living is median range. If that is the case, then you may well find yourself an in-house designer for $30,000 per year.
Okay, so now you want to add some Flash to your site. Your current designer is not capable of producing Flash and you don' t have the software or support to do it in-house. Now we have an added expense to outsource that work. In California, the going rate for Flash is about $40.00 per finished second (high end Flash, not Swish), and that is a rough guess, don' t do much in the Flash arena as it interferes with my main objective, to get you listed in the top search engine results!
Which brings me to my next point. Now you need to promote your site. Your current designer does not have the experience required to do it. Another added expense and usually a sizable one if you hire the right person.
Okay, now you need to add database functionality. Ooops, sorry again, the current in house designer is not versed in database integration. Now you need to hire Spooky at $250.00 per hour, another added expense.
Per project, per page pricing is probably the best method of offering web development services. There is much more that goes into a properly constructed page. Sure, you can open up FP and bang pages out all day. Do those pages validate? Are they spider friendly? Do they convey your marketing message properly? So many questions to answer.
I' m going to charge you anywhere from $200.00 to $400.00 per hour depending on your requirements. But, what I do in 1 hour would take many 10-15 hours to do. Why? Because I' ve done it for six years and have picked up many other specialties along the way relevant to promoting online businesses. When I build a page, you' ve got one person wearing a variety of hats who can offer a turn-key solution for your online business.
And you know what? I' m going to produce a visually appealing site that validates to the W3C standards and uses a host of site management features that would give you goose bumps!
You get what you pay for. You cannot produce a well rounded site in house with one person who is not a true professional, without the assistance of outside resources. When you add the cost of those outside resources with your internal costs, you will probably pay close to, or possibly more than the numbers that have been discussed.
Again, for those of you who have the experience, and the talents, charge for your services accordingly. I' ve been in sales for 15 years and I learned at the very beginning of my career that people are not afraid to pay top dollar if they see a return on their investment. In fact, top dollar usually brings above satisfactory results which means a win/win situation for all involved. That' s the keyword phrase right there; Win/Win.
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jryan
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RE: RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 23:13:53
Pageoneresults I agree with you that there are other costs involved that’s why in my examples I quoted gross profits rather then net profits.
Also, in no way I’m I saying that talented people should not charge what their worth. My original posts here were in response to Webwork’s post about hiring helpers at a lesser fee then they would charge if they had to get their own work.
I think there is a big difference for charging top dollar for work that you have to earn, compared to accepting work that is handed to you.
I don’t know many people who couldn’t use an extra couple of hundred bucks a month, and from Webwork’s post it doesn’t sound as though he is trying to take advantage, it sounds like he’s only trying to feel out if he could take on extra work loads and afford to farm that extra work out. I could be wrong on that, but again my point is it’s work someone wouldn’t get otherwise.
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pageoneresults
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RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 23:20:38
> Also, in no way I’m I saying that talented people should not charge what their worth. My original posts here were in response to Webwork’s post about hiring helpers at a lesser fee then they would charge if they had to get their own work.
Sorry about that, I think I carried the topic out in left field and I ran into the fence!
There is plenty of wholesale web work out there. I' m sure Webwork has received many emails from this thread offering services. I had my blinders on and saw something that I feel very deeply about, and that is the pricing structure within the industry. Its all relative...
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jryan
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RE: RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/11/2002 23:31:43
I understand, not a problem.. Think how someone like me feels. I’m not a web designer, and I struggle with every little thing I have to do on the site. In trying to offer my opinion today on this board, I’ve been called unprofessional because they don’t have a plug in for flash or swish whatever it is.
You have every right to feel passionate about your industry. I think a professional has very deep feelings about how their industry works because it directly reflects on them.
In my original posts, I explained my experiences in trying to find affordable help for my customers. I provide my customers free showcase theaters, and some of them have special needs. Being that I dislike having to do any web page work, I have tried to find a decent web page designer to wholesale to me so I can charge a reasonable rate to my customers, and make a little something for my time.
Then the post I made seemed to take on its own dimensions, when all I wanted to do was offer my opinion on the original post.
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caywind
Posts: 1479
From: USA
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RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/12/2002 3:45:30
is this a typo?quote:
If you are unlucky, you end up being used.
I think he means, you end up being sued.
In California my graphics person is $50.00 hour and the Programmers are like $135, thank goodness for free software!
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torben
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RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/12/2002 5:48:30
As someone wrote, it all depends on the cost of living in your area. I think US 10.00 sounds great, when can I start. A friend of me is looking for work also. He is a graphic designer. Photoshop.
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Gil
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RE: RE: RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/12/2002 7:52:07
quote:
jryan:
You’re a web designer and you don’t have a plug in for flash? And you talk about professionalism? By the way I’m not a web page designer, and the page is from OutFront.
Actually John, I don' t consider myself a web " designer" , rather a developer. And I have the flash plugin on two of the machines at home, but to have been at the office. BTW, the comapny I work for has over 30,000 computers and not one has a flash plugin installed.
quote:
P.S. Gil, if you were any kind of professional web designer and noticed that someone’s page might have a problem, rather then calling them unprofessional you might consider approaching them to correct the problem. But then again you just proved that your far from professional.
Hmm, reread my post: I say " I have to wonder about the professionalism" - not that it is unprofessional. But, maybe I should have said, " jryan, you need to check your site, all I get is a blank page" , sorry, but now you can a least fix it?
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barry
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RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/12/2002 14:48:42
My 2 cents worth is you get what you pay for. Just be clear on what you want.
My time is worth way more that $10 per hour even if I am simply cleaning my fish tank. If I found someone who is happy with $10 per hour I would be remiss if I did not consider the consequensces if they scewed it up. If my clients yelled at me, or if it took me longer then a minute to correct the problem then I should have hired a pro, who coat more. At least I can get the pro to fix the problem, the rookie may not even understand the problem. But if the job is simple and low risk then have at it.
I prefer to pay folks for the project not by the hour. What do i care if they are a wiz and it takes them 10 min to do something that would take me/rookie hours to do. And it looks good.
I can' t fix the motor in my car but I still need it to get to work to earn a living.
Barry
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MacWeb
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RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/14/2002 2:51:35
Hi there,
I' m a newbie to FP as well as this forum (as you can see, this is my first post!). Without knowing anything about the project, Webwork says he might need non-professional help building and updating webpages. Reading between the lines, I guess that Webwork is taking on the role of project manager and possibly integrator, so he probably won' t be giving too much autonomy to individuals within the project.
Like some of you, I think this might be a great opportunity to develop experience and so the pay rate, whilst important, is not the primary concern. Getting more experience is. We novices can be just as motivated and enthusiastic as professionals, so I don' t think that Webwork will have any difficulties at all finding helpers. I' d certainly be interested in finding out more about the project. Drop me a line when you' re ready, Webwork...gomack@iprimus.com.au
Cheers
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c1sissy
Posts: 5084
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RE: Paid FrontPage helpers - 7/22/2002 19:04:34
I have been following this thread with great interest.
I have been learning front page for the past few weeks. Html I have been focusing on for several months. Of course after following this thread I know that I still have much to learn.
I also would be willing to work out of my home at any pay that is in line with what my knowledge about all of this is at. Knowing that I have much to learn tells me that I wouldn' t be in any of the higer scale pays, but definately on the lower end of the scale.  
I have a great desire to learn front page, web design, asp, and database integration. I don' t at this point in time have the finances to do this through regular instructor led classes. Also due to some health issues, learning at home is a better option for me.
One thing not focused on in this thread are people with disabilities who would better benefit from working out of their homes. I know of many people who would be thrilled with this opportunity. Many of them have put in many hours learning how to do many things from working with graphics and designing logos and banners, to just web design. Some of these people could go on disability and be paid by the government to just sit and rot their brains. However, they feel that they are worth more then that, so they work hard to learn all that they can learn in order to make life better for themselves, to feel like they can accomplish something.
I myself would consider myself honored to work for WebWork. His question was for a pay scale for those who aren' t professionals in this area, but had a bit of knowledge as to how front page works. I, unfortunately am not even at the level of understanding how front page works as of yet. However, I am faithfuly working at it.
I' m one of those who are coming into working front page without having even the basic knowledge of how a word program even works.
For what it is worth, I think that WebWork was a bit beat up by this question. I think that this person was sincere in looking for a pay scale that was fair to those who don' t have professioal training in certain areas.
For what it is worth, I' m also a stay at home mom/domestic engineer. I have spent 1/2 my life raising my 5 children.(4boys 1 girl, ages from 20-9 years of age) I got into learning how to design web pages in order to start an online business with crafts. In my learning how to do this, I have developed an interest in more then just doing the online crafts. I have developed an addiction to learning as much as possible about anything that has to do with the web and computers.
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