Paid FrontPage helpers (Full Version)

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Webwork -> Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 11:55:59)

I' ve got a project I' m working on that may require a number of " helpers" .

Not so long ago, say early 2000, every kid that could type HTML thought that being paid less than $35 - $50/hour was an affront, but they still helped given the alternative of working at DairyQueen for minimum wage. It still didn' t work, and I managed to get a poor ROI, since the kids spent most of their time paying attention to their IRC/AIM window.

With the bust of the dot com bubble I think reality has set in and I' m considering reaching out to find some work-at-home moms, etc., who might want to pick up some money for part-time work helping build or update FrontPage webs. I' m thinking of offering $7.50-$10.00/hour to start, ramp up depending on how productive, reliable, etc. the person is.

What issues do you all see with this type of collaborative project, using non-professionals, at this initial pay rate, etc?

I run my own co-lo servers.

Thanks.



Patti -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 12:17:03)

As you stated the ROI for the kids was not acceptable.

It really depends on what you are having the stay at home moms do.

If it is just the data entry then I would say the 7 - 10 range might be acceptable to them.

If you are expecting a lot more of them then are you prepared to do the training required to get them up to speed with what you need done?

Once they are trained they will easily see that they are underpaid for their services and I suspect if they are at all ambitious they will move on to greener pastures and may thank you for the opportunity to learn a useful skill that they can make a halfway decent living with from the comfort of their homes.

So you may find that your ROI is again not very good.

Just my 2 cents,

Patti



abbeyvet -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 12:38:41)

I am a sort of a stay at home Mom, in that I stay at home and work from an office at home.

I sort of resent the implication that anyone who is a Mom at home should somehow be available to work at anyhting other than the most basic and undemanding task for that sort of money, or that their time is, or should be, somehow ' cheaper' than other peoples.

If it updating at the level of very basic data entry, then as Patti said, maybe. Just maybe.

If it is building sites and you are expecting any level of quality or attention to detail then forget it. If someone has the knowledge and expertise required to build decent sites, using whatever tools, then they would and should be able to earn more than that, whether they are kids, moms, men or monkeys.

There is a level of investment in staff, whether permanent, temporary, contract, freelance or whatever, below which you will never get a decent return.



Mike54 -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 12:52:34)

I have to agree with Patti and Katherine. I think if you pay your associates fairly for their skill level and the work performed they will get what they want out of the relationship as will you.



Webwork -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 13:30:35)

It' s interesting, and gratifying, to see the initial response.

I know many people of sufficient intelligence to master FrontPage, working in retailing, offices, child care, food industry, service, etc. for $7.50 - $10.00/hour or not much more, who have commuting expense, babysitting or daycare expense, meal prep issues, etc., so $10/hour at home - where you also have the luxury of setting your own hours - has a significant value.

I' m a stay-at-home dad as much as possible, a benefit of self-employment, so I appreaciate the benefits of home-work. I don' t see " stay at home" as a slight, but as a benefit. Just how many legitimate " work at home" job offers are there " out there" right now? No many. I know plenty of families who' d like to generate more income but can' t because when they' re done figuring out the associated expenses and costs - it just doesn' t make sense.

I guess in the end this becomes a free market issue. People do a cost benefit analysis. If they' re worth significantly more after mastering FrontPage I' m certain they will be snatched up by better paying employers. However, I don' t see many advertisements for such jobs right now.

If anyone actually owns a company that employs people help them build or update websites I' d like to know the geographic region and how much employees with certain skill sets are paid - net - (if you don' t mind the disclosure.) I' m not talking about hiring people with computer science degrees. Learning FrontPage isn' t that hard if you' ve worked with other Microsoft products.

I' m open to being disabused, abused, or educated as you see fit so all opinions and angles are welcome. However, I' d reallly appreciate input beyond pay level.

Thanks.



Patti -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 14:18:52)

Well Webwork,

I certainly hope you did not think we were abusing you! [:D] and
I am sorry if I misunderstood but I thought your original question was about pay rate for this type of work.

The term " stay at home mom' s" was not a problem and I did not find it offensive.

I agree that FP as well as html, javascript, and asp are easy to learn, that is, if you want to. I know many people a lot smarter then me who do not have the patience to learn it though. They would prefer to pay me to do it just as I would prefer to pay a plumber to fix my toilet even though I know I have the capacity to do it myself. I just don' t have the desire to read the books and learn to do it properly. (plus I don' t want to get all dirty and wet [:o])

I am a programmer by trade and I have spent countless hours on this forum, with books, and on the job, learning the ins and outs of front page and web developement.

There is definetly work out there even though you do not see it advertised. All of my jobs are from word of mouth and are never advertised at all.

I hope that someone else here can give you the input you need.

Good Luck,

Patti




_gail -> RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 14:35:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webwork

Learning FrontPage isn' t that hard if you' ve worked with other Microsoft products.


Webwork,

I' m tempted to ask how old you are, but I won' t!

FrontPage isn' t that hard!? Phooey! It is perhaps if you don' t care about doing a good job.

The success of this forum and the number of partipants are testimony to the fact that many people need help in the area of web design, particularly those who solely depend on FrontPage. I' ve used Microsoft and Adobe products for years and find using FrontPage successfully to be a great challenge. It is NOT just another page layout program as I initially thought.

My suspision is that " people of sufficient intelligence" will venture out and do web design from their home on their before working for the token amount you suggest. I pay people to clean my house almost double.

gail



Webwork -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 16:10:08)

Interesting. This has evolved into a fair wage debate.

By your comments it would appear that more that a few people are eligible for incomes of $50,000 and up working from their home PC. People should start quitting their day jobs if $10/hour is a pittance and pick up a FP book and CD. A couple of months of study and they' ll double and triple their incomes. If this is all true then we' ve remedied a massive amount of underemployment. I' m all for it.

Just how much do you pay freelance helpers? $20/hour? $30/hour? How many people do you keep regularly employed at those rates?

What you have to look out for is, as cross-border commerce becomes more reliable and cross-border payments less anxiety provoking, $10/hour jobs move to locations where $10/hour is a king' s ransom. Website maintenance and design is likely a condidate for such movement. Pay scales are always relative to the cost of living.

As always, it' s interesting to engage an issue with thoughtful, informed people who are willing and able to argue the merits of a position Not sure that' s why I posted here, but there' s something new to learn every day.

OBTW. My age? I' m 46, married 25 years, 2 kids b/g 16/14, wife' s a scientist with advanced degree in microbiology, chocolate lab, blue macaw, like biking, gardening, wood work, stained glass, music - play sax and guitar, coach all manner of kids sports, live on Main Street (for real), served as Mayor of Main St. and surroundings. grew up in the burbs of NYC (Bergen County) and moved to the semi-rural burbs of Phila, and last but not least http://www.NJTrialAttorney.com




Gil -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 16:44:07)

Interesting thread.

My 2 cents worth: I don' t believe web development, oops, make the web design is a hourly pay job. In the past when I' ve used freelanceers, I' ve paid for the results, not by the hour, but based on an estimate of $25 - $30 per hour.

Now, my other 2 cents worth[:@] - Frontpage is not rocket science, but without a knowledge of HTML, CSS and Javascript or VBscript, as a minimum no one is going to develop much of a site. To really develop a site that does something (other than play a flash movie and irritate the heck out of people with some silly sound file) they will also need ' some' Perl or PHP knowledge. So, now your in the $25 - $30/hour range again.



abbeyvet -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 17:51:55)

I am not sure it is a wage debate really.

First off I apologise if my initial post seemed abrubt. It was. I overreacted. Sorry.

However I do still think that there are some problems at the core of your arguement.

One is the changing nature of that part of the workforce comprised of stay at home people. Many are there by choice rather than circumstances and many are both skilled and adaptable. I don' t think a lot of them (us) need to rely anymore on one source of work so your question

quote:

How many people do you keep regularly employed at those rates?


kind of misses the point. I pay and am paid more than that on a very regular basis. But I am not dependant on regular employment by anyone, nor are those that I regularly employ. The point of working as a freelance for many of us is not to be dependant on a regular employer.

I turned a hobby - web design - into one aspect of what I do, but all freelancers need more than one string to their bow so I run a small hosting operation using leased servers, write a bit for here and also occasionally for some newspapers and magazines, do a little consulting from time to time, even occasionally a bit of work for some veterinary pharmaceutical companies. A little of this, a little of that, all at different rates.

I honestly do not think that is so unusual anymore. Many of the people I work with are in similar mode - they do whatever comes their way that they can do but are beholden to no one master.


I do think that you are missing a major point when it come to FP and web design. Even someone with the most indepth knowledge of FrontPage imaginable is a very, very limited web designer/developer. They might be very competent at maintaining a site created in FP, or be able to create excellent but extremely limited websites but that is as far as it goes.

To turn an analogy I have often used around a bit, FP is a tool that some web designers find useful, just as many novelists find Word indispensble. FP will allow someone with just a knowledge of the programme to create websites. Word will allow anyone who can use it to write novels.

99% of those novels have no hope of publication though the writing of them may be a great experience for the writer, the writer' s friends and family might enjoy them and they might even have intrinsic value. Probably a much higher percentage of FP webs are published because there is no one to get between the creator and the publication process, but many will be personal sites that do as much as is required of them to a level acceptable to their owners and those that are not are created by people who sooner or later realise their limitations and end up here (if they are lucky) asking " How do I....?"

So, if someone is looking to employ people who have developed a competence in FP as a step sideways from other Office apps then it really intrigues me to know just what these people will be employed to do, beyond enter copy or do some maintenance. Certainly if that is their only competence they are not going to be employable as web developers/designers.


quote:

What you have to look out for is, as cross-border commerce becomes more reliable and cross-border payments less anxiety provoking, $10/hour jobs move to locations where $10/hour is a king' s ransom. Website maintenance and design is likely a condidate for such movement. Pay scales are always relative to the cost of living.


That has already happened long since. I am in Ireland, which does not have a particularly low cost of living, for example our minimum wage is higher than yours, and I have developed several sites for clients in the UK and the USA most of whom are happy to employ someone in a country they know little about and to whom, in many cases, they never actually speak, to do the work as long as the goodies are produced as required and within budget.

I sub contract some bits of some of these jobs from time to time, in one particular area to an ex accountant in South Africa who does freelance Flash development. There are people on this board who work together as a company and are located in different countries on different sides of the world and have never actually ' met' . Heck just take this board itself, Tom own and runs it, Spooky makes it happen, I write for it and all the moderators and regular contributes are the air it breathes, we are all in different timezones, in most cases have never met each other and in my case I have never even spoken to either Tom or Spooky or most of the other mods on the phone. I do feel I know them though, and I count many of them as friends along with many others I have ' met' online. The internet has changed more than the nature of work, it has chaged the nature of friendship too in many cases.


Another thing is the issue of professionals versus non professionals. If the internet, computers and technology did anything it was to make people realise that a bit of paper form a college with an official looking stamp on it tells you very little about the competence of the person you are planning to hire. It might get someone' s foot in the door but it will not get them much further. What you can demonstrably do is what matters. I have never, ever, been even asked about qualifications by anyone I have worked for. I have worked for the largest telecommunications company in Ireland as a consultant on a series of web portals and for government funded bodies on a number of occasions and thus we are not just talking people who would not think to ask. It reflects a realisation that you are as good as the work you do and not the papers you have.

I wish it was an attitude that had wider application.


So I suppose, if I look at your origianal question, then I have to conceed that the rate you mentioned as a starting point for someone whose only skill is a basic grasp of FP is perhaps realistic. I don' t quite know what benefit such a limited skillset would give to any employer though.

If you are looking for someone looking for someone competent in using FP as a tool in good website design, then that is a different story entirely.

What you now need is someone who also has design flair, a knowledge of the intricacies of site architecture, is capable of creating (or editing) good, web friendly copy, of using creating and using images appropriatly, of providing a level of functionality at the site though use of some form of client or server side scripting, who understands the implications of and limitations imposed by various browsers, has an understanding of how search engines work and the implications that has for site design, has some knowledge of the various server platforms and what they can support and that is just for starters. That is the stuff mny of us hang around here to learn. If it was just about using an office application this would be a very quiet place indeed.



Mike54 -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/7/2002 19:20:10)

I have to admit that the last posts by Gil and Katherine almost made me feel totally inadequate to be working on websites, almost. Then again, I' ve spent a couple of years with FP (and other editors) and at least a year and a half here just to get to my lowly level of competence. I' m not whining, it' s the way it is. I' m well aware of what some of the people here can do. I' ve also taken the time to try and get a grip on asp, css and javascript (as Gil indicated) and while not an expert by any means I can " fake it" and if I don' t know I know where to start and need help, 100% of the time I start here.

quote:

By your comments it would appear that more that a few people are eligible for incomes of $50,000 and up working from their home PC. People should start quitting their day jobs if $10/hour is a pittance and pick up a FP book and CD. A couple of months of study and they' ll double and triple their incomes.


I don' t think anyone actually believes that. While there are people who may be able to develop the skill set required to " supplement" their incomes few, if any, are going to be able to pick up an FP book and CD and in a couple of months jump in and make thousands of dollars on a regular basis and so quit their jobs. First of all there are a couple bagillion people who think they can build websites already (most who can' t in my opinion). If they' ve been able to get anything actually on the web (other than a free personal site) they aren' t going to accept $10/hr.

If I understand correctly your looking to hire some " helpers" . If you were to place an add in my local paper looking for help I " might" answer the add because it' s something I believe I can do (now, no training required). Understand that I enjoy it to the point of creating sites just for fun but if you were to say $10 or even $15/hr, you wouldn' t even see me leave I' d be out of there so fast.

Even if you were to pay them $30/hr do you expect to keep them gainfully employed for a year, 40/hrs a week? I don' t think so, so there goes their elevation to $50,000 a year. As a fill in job, with no expectation of any further income I personally would be looking for something a bit more substantial in the way of compensation.

Now that I' ve ranted I will admit that I have no websites for which I' ve been paid on the internet (I' m a Quality Manager). I do have have three company websites that I' ve built and maintain about which Marketing and Sales are quite enthusiastic (of course they don' t know anything about building a website). I fell into this quite accidentally and I' m glad I did but it was a lot of work to reach even a small understanding of the things required to get it right. If you can find " helpers" who can get it done the way you want it they deserve a good payback on the effort. I personally don' t think they' re just going to come walking in off the street for $10/hr.

Good Luck.



_gail -> RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 8:20:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike54

I have to admit that the last posts by Gil and Katherine almost made me feel totally inadequate to be working on websites, almost


Mike,

I admit too that I have often felt inadequate since hanging around here. I have however set that feeling aside, fully realizing there' s lots and lots to learn. I bet there was a time in the beginning stages of their web design life that even Gil and Katherine felt inadequate. I do not compare myself to them and others whose sites I drool over when I look at them. Instead, I use them as inspiration for where I hope to be someday with regard to my web design.

In my case, I' ve done a few sites for nothing, then began picking up 3-10 page sites (for pay!) along the way. Recently, I landed a very big website job and received more pay that I ever imagined. Understanding my limitations, I was wise enough to hire a consultant to oversee my work. The client got what they wanted and deserved and, boy, have I learned a ton of information that will help me going forward!

My point in sharing this is that I believe if you work and study hard, understand your limitations and don' t bite off more than you can chew, throw in a bit of business acumen, and seek out the help of someone more skilled than yourself when needed, this really can work.

FrontPage is a tool, in my case a very important one, but not the only one.

gail

ps Webwork, I grew up in Bergen County; New Milford, Hackensack, was an art educator in Upper Saddle River for a few years...a long time ago.



abbeyvet -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 8:55:24)

quote:

I have to admit that the last posts by Gil and Katherine almost made me feel totally inadequate to be working on websites, almost.


I am sorry if they did, even almost, mine, and I am sure Gil' s also, were certainly not intended to.

I think if anyone is making sites and doesn' t feel a bit inadequate from time to time, then they are in big, big trouble! It would mean they felt they knew everything they needed to know. Nobody does, there is always more to learn. I would hate to have someone who thought they knew everything working on a site for me.

On the other hand there are lots of people for whom a load of the stuff that is mentioned here will never be relevant. They have in FrontPage, with perhaps the odd extra like a bit of JavaScript or something, a tool that enables to to acheive exactly what they want to acheive. If they go no further there is no inadequacy whatsoever in that, it is intelligent and economical use of resources.

Learn what you need to know to do what you want to do.



Gil -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 9:43:54)

quote:

I bet there was a time in the beginning stages of their web design life that even Gil and Katherine felt inadequate.


Speaking for myself; I have gone thru stages of " over confidence" to " complete inadequatcy" for a little over 10 years in the web design/development thing. Today, I " may" get something right and feel like I know it all - tomorrow, I' ll be beating my head against the wall for not being able to do something really simple! I hope no one took my post as a rant - I didn' t intend it that way at all.

I think Katherine said it well, " Learn what you need to know to do what you want to do."



Mike54 -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 11:14:40)

quote:

I am sorry if they did, even almost, mine, and I am sure Gil' s also, were certainly not intended to.


I' m sure they were not, I was acknowledging how much more I needed to learn (and putting it poorly).

quote:

I do not compare myself to them and others whose sites I drool over when I look at them. Instead, I use them as inspiration for where I hope to be someday with regard to my web design.


I couldn' t agree more. If I hadn' t found this place, with its enormous amount of information, encouragement and inspiration I might have stopped trying to design web sites a long time ago.

As for my " ranting" it was much too strong a term. I should have said " Now that I' ve added my $.02" [:(]



winter -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 12:08:05)

What a thought provoking topic! I think your real question is " How saturated is the market with workers with FP skills that you can exploit for say $7-10. per hour?"

I remember a time when in Canada at least, you' d pay top dollar to anyone who knew how to use " Word" . Now it has become almost a requirement for any type of low paying office work. Ask any headhunter. Is FP at that stage as yet? I doubt it. I think there is still a huge learning curve for most people in understanding what is the internet and how do you get stuff on it.

I worked in social services for 20 years, in agencies doing good work for families and children. The team of paid professionals was usually limited to 1 or 2 out of a team of 20. Because of a chronic lack of financial resources we constantly relied on volunteers who came and went, and low paid staff with lower skill levels. Part of our job was to train the staff and volunteers, to bring up their skill level so that they could do a good job with the families and kids.

By the time their skills were adequate for the job, as mentioned in other posts in this thread, competent staff were gone to greener pastures where their true worth was honored with right pay. My job became bogged down with a revolving door of training the next low paid person.

I also know of an agency that routinely screened new employees with some sort of psych test looking for a particular set of charactoristics. WHile it made me sick, it may just work for you. They wanted a person whose profile was one of low self esteem, over-achiever, would do anything to prove how worthy they are including work 60 hours per week for very low pay AND a high skill level. They were also looking for people that would remain loyal to the company no matter what. In many respects this is also the profile of women who are in abusive relationships and can' t leave.

There is always someone who will be attracted to the deal you are offering, for their own personal reasons. They will in the end reflect who you are, your values and your intentions.

Personally, the rate of pay you offer suggests someone that can perhaps update content routinely. But to independantly solve the problems that come up in web maintaince, design and create or use any of the web design tools past FP.... I don' t think so. Or if you do luck into these folks you and your projects will not be their priority. The low pay will not be incentive enough to work through the tough times, high pressure times etc. Their own personal at home life will have a greater priority and they will drop you like a hot potato with no forwarding email address, when their personal priorities arise.

So be careful who you hire and for how much.






Patti -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/8/2002 13:42:05)

WOW - winter your 2 cents says it all and says it so eloquently.

Patti



Webwork -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/9/2002 19:36:15)

Okay. So, for basic content updating - cut and paste - it' s not bad to make $7.50 - $10.00 for that type of work, sitting at your desk, as your schedule allows, in your PJs. That appears to be the consensus, which works for me since a lot of what I have need for fits that description.

Now, for fancier work - design layout, graphics, sciptiing, it would seem that the range is up to $30 and above, unless someone suffering from low self-esteem falls prey to an irresistible impulse to work for less.

WINTER, what a fine bit of condescension. You' ve obviously spent 20 years perfecting that attitude, you old service to the downtrodden professional. It' s a good thing you' re on to other projects. The gestalt your verbiage reveals exemplifies how you' ve devolved to the antithesis of service. but nevermind another reality, you just go on feeling good and superior and noble and better and wise oh honorable and sanctimonious one. I smell a little burnt circuitry and flesh in your post. I guess little old me hasn' t seen enough of the world to grasp my inequity or, if I have, it' s just that I' m one of the exploiters of the masses. However, for you Winter, I' m certain there' s an evangelical movement that you could slide right into.

Oh, barf.

P.S. Thanks, you all, for the somtimes useful analysis and I give you all an " A" for effort.



Spooky -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/10/2002 4:39:19)

I have to agree with Winter, you end up paying for dedication and knowledge.
Short term, low wages become a stepping stone to higher aspirations.
If you are unlucky, you end up being used.



_gail -> RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/10/2002 9:42:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webwork

and I give you all an " A" for effort.


Thanks for the grade, webwork, but I wish you' d really step back a moment and try to understand why some of us here may have gotten miffed.

Most come to this forum seeking help and asking questions. We don' t always like the answers because they usually mean work, hard work. We must go back and rethink and relearn then redo what we already thought we knew, learned and did.

If you get past the eloquence, or ineloquence (however one perceives it), of what has been said here, in my view it' s really rather simple: just do some rethinking of what you propose based on the input you sought and found here. Where better to obtain a few insights than from individuals who actually work with FrontPage?!

gail


btw, did you ever have any of your own sites critiqued in these forums?



Skinnart -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 12:18:58)

Webwork email me with details if you would please. I am very proficient with FrontPage and might be interested in what you are looking for. My email addy is Skinnart@hotmail.com. I look forward to hearing from you.



BexHall -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 12:25:03)

Hi Webwork,

I' m interested in learning more details about the scope of the work you have in mind.

I' ve been working with Frontpage for about 11 months now and have my own website. I devote about 25 hours a week to updates, changes and improvements to the existing site that have all been self-taught, largely through these forums. It' s not perfect, but it serves the purpose for now.

My point is, I need to supplement my income and would like to learn more about what you' re needing help with.

Sincerely,

Bex Hall
www.heart2heartstories.com




pageoneresults -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 12:55:46)

The level of expertise held by the web developer will determine what you pay as an hourly rate. Most professional developers will not charge by the hour, but by the project. Hourly work is just that, hourly work. You will get what you pay for. In some instances, you' ll get lucky and strike a deal. When that happens, its usually a win/lose situation, you win, the developer loses. In a win/win situation, you get the best of both worlds. Quality web site development along with many other services that can be beneficial to your Internet presence. I' m not saying you can' t find this with low hourly wages, but those who offer that for $10.00 an hour are doing a disservice to themselves and the pricing structure of the industry.

Content management, website updates, etc. all require some basic level of html experience. FP was designed just for that purpose. But, there is another side to FP that your low hourly wage provider may not know about. That is when the professional steps in and really takes control of the content and presentation. Again, this can be done with low hourly wage providers, but in my mind, its a disservice as mentioned above.

If I were to establish a minimum hourly wage for web work, I' d probably start with a low of $50.00 per hour and a high of $150.00+ per hour. Its all relative to the type of work being performed. Adding and modifying content can be done by an low hourly wage provider. Optimizing html code, css, javascript and other types of code will require a higher level of education therefore increasing the hourly rate based on the level of technical expertise.

For all of you who are underestimating the worth of your services, please take a very close look at the level of expertise you are providing. $10.00 per hour is unacceptable for any type of work in my mind, let alone web development/content management. If you are new to the industry, then you need to assess your level of expertise and charge accordingly. If you are banging out Mom and Pop sites, then expect to be at the lower level of the pay scale.

If you are producing quality sites with quality content, and those sites generate profit for your customer, expect to demand a higher level of pay! Don' t cut yourself short! Do it today or forever find yourself battling for $10.00 per hour work!



JR -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 13:07:16)

[:)]I’ve found this thread interesting, being both a professional and freelance web site designer and developer. Of course being a professional more than just mastering FrontPage is required to develop large scale Intranet or Extranets web based applications.

My two cents;

[:D]FrontPage is easy to use but to really get advance results from the product a fair amount of learning is required.

[:D]In the freelance world, when building site consisting of apply a theme the customer likes and a dozen or so pages of straight HTML pages with no complex ASP, JavaScript etc… the price range would be more like $15 to $20 an hour. If the needs are more complex, expect to pay between $20 and $35 an hour, and that’s inexpensive.

[;)]On the other hand if what your offering is $10 - $15 dollars an hour for a minimal of lets say 20 hours a week, per week of steady work. Then perhaps this price range would work for some people.

Thanks...JR



Spooky -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 17:08:02)

You should see the speed at which I type.
Its amazing what can be achieved with 1 finger [;)]

Thats why hourly figures are often a guide - some people here could achieve the same thing in 5 minutes that a new person could create in an hour. Its all relative. I normally prefer set price contract too - you know what you are getting.



sullise -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 17:13:36)

I' m not a total newb, but I am having a tough time breaking into this field on a part time basis. Between my bread and butter job, my kids, and other such things, I don' t have the time to go out and find work. I, personally, would be happy to have some part-time web work at $10 an hour to garner experience and a portfolio. I think you can find many like me around.

Just my 2 cents.



jryan -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 17:18:54)

Hello,

I’m new here, and I wanted to give you all a customer’s perspective on the issue. To begin with, I truly dislike having to do my own site. I’m not a web designer and I have no desire to be one.

I’m a streaming media hosting provider who provides video editing services, CD and DVD creation of customer media content and still image to video creation. That’s what I do. When it comes to web page creation and maintenance I typically dread having to do it.

As a small business owner I have a difficult time justifying the fees that I have been approached at starting from $50.00 per hour to $200.00 per hour especially for projects that I’m handing them.

It seems to me that anyone wanting to work for them selves, and earn a good living should be focused on steady work at affordable prices, especially in today’s Internet market. Web designers today have to compete with programs like FrontPage not to mention other web designers.

Based on my understanding of Webwork’s post if Webwork is going to hand work out to “project helpers” then paying a realistic fee of $10.00 an hour for their time is realistic.

From many of the posts I’ve read it appears that most of you are web page designers. I would ask myself a few simple questions if I was approached to help on a project for a smaller fee then I would normally charge.

1. How much time and money would I have to put out to get that work on my own?
2. How many hours of work is Webwork going to give me?
3. Do I have enough income coming in to turn work away, or is it my ego preventing me from making less then I would charge if I had to go out and get the customer on my own?

Let me elaborate on the 3rd question. As I’ve mentioned I am always on the look out for partners I can contract work to for my customers, not to mention my own needs.

When I approach web designers for customer projects for example they are unwilling to charge me a wholesale price for their work. From my perspective I’m handing the web designer work, and if their any good they continue getting work.

That unwillingness to establish a relationship with a vender that hands work to you on a regular basis appears to be ego driven. If a web designer can’t handle the workload they have now that’s certainly a realistic reason to turn work away. However, if someone is handing you work that you do not need to go out and find on your own, you might want to consider adjusting your charges so the vender can charge affordable fees to the consumer, and make a little for themselves. In this case everyone wins. The customer gets their web project, the vendor makes a small profit, and you the web designer get work handed to you that you would NOT have gotten otherwise.

Sorry for such a long winded response. I’m a just a business owner that sees the web design industry as static in attitude. Common sense for a small business owner is if I have regular work coming in and the standard in the web design industry is to charge even $50.00 an hour, I’ll just hire a full time in house web designer as an employee for a lot less per hour.



pageoneresults -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 17:29:14)

Bottom line is... your bottom line! If you want quality development along with other additional services, then you will pay what the developer/team is worth. If your budget does not permit this type of expenditure, then you will sift through the tens of thousands of beginners and work at that level. We all started at the beginning level. We all learned from our mistakes. Mistakes I made years ago can cost an online business money today. Mistakes that I see many beginners make today will cost an online business money period!

If its a personal hobby site or not commercial related, then $10.00 per hour is it. You can probably go offshore and find it for half that price.

We have a saying here at our Corporate offices in Orange, California...

Pay Peanuts, Get Monkeys

This is not to say that those charging minimal fees for their services to get work are monkeys! Its just an expression we use quite a bit when confronted with pricing issues. In most instances the consumer sees the value, in those instances where they do not, we can refer them to someone reputable who might be able to fulfill their needs.



winter -> RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 17:50:40)

I would also like to add the notion of risk.

You could also ask yourself what is the most amount of damage that can occur at a site left in the hands of someone who is being paid $10.00 per hour at the skill level they have presented with the level of motivation they have for doing the job. What would your level of liablity be both for that site, your reputation and your business?

If the helpers are part of a bigger team with support people to call on when there is trouble that may be different than leaving them responsible for the whole site. Responsiblities would need to be defined.

I still say you get what you pay for.



moose -> RE: RE: Paid FrontPage helpers (7/11/2002 20:52:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jryan

When I approach web designers for customer projects for example they are unwilling to charge me a wholesale price for their work. From my perspective I’m handing the web designer work, and if their any good they continue getting work.

That unwillingness to establish a relationship with a vender that hands work to you on a regular basis appears to be ego driven. If a web designer can’t handle the workload they have now that’s certainly a realistic reason to turn work away. However, if someone is handing you work that you do not need to go out and find on your own, you might want to consider adjusting your charges so the vender can charge affordable fees to the consumer, and make a little for themselves. In this case everyone wins. The customer gets their web project, the vendor makes a small profit, and you the web designer get work handed to you that you would NOT have gotten otherwise.

Sorry for such a long winded response. I’m a just a business owner that sees the web design industry as static in attitude. Common sense for a small business owner is if I have regular work coming in and the standard in the web design industry is to charge even $50.00 an hour, I’ll just hire a full time in house web designer as an employee for a lot less per hour.



Not all of the web design industry is static in attitude, a number of web designers, including us, do exactly what you are saying doesn' t happen, and ARE prepared to provide a vendor with a lower price so that they can make money too from the end user/client.

Realistically, this is what freelance web designers are also doing, they charge one price to the project, and then the project charges another price to the client, so you see, it really does already happen in this industry.

Not all web designers charge per hour either, we charge by page, and then charge specific fees for added extras like flash animation and specialist forms/scripting. Our clients understand, as would anyone, that if you want dancing bears then you have to pay for dancing bears - but if you don' t then why should the customer have to pay for something they don' t need. Pricing is, across the board in this industry, in my opinion, relative to what you are getting for your money.

But like any serious designer, we don' t work for nothing, and our prices are based on a rough estimate of $55 per hour, and dearer for specialist things. What do we pay our contractors, since this was the original vain of the thread - about $20 an hour for basic stuff, about $35-$40 an hour for specialist stuff like Flash. If you pay less, people aren' t interested, and thy simply resent the fact you are throwing work at them for not a lot of return.

Well, that' s my rant, I' m sure it will invoke a response from someone. [:D]




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