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barry
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SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/10/2002 14:30:55
Hi Everybody,
Ok I have A SEO question,
I have been looking for a real SEO person, and I have tons of folks/companys who are more than willing to take my money. I did much of my research on the various SEO forums around.
Obviously, I can do the submissions myself, and I can optimize the pages, meta tags, keywords, content etc.
So what am I paying them to do? Has anyone used a company/person jsut for SEO? Was it worth it?
If you are a web developer, do you charge additional for SEO after the web is built?
Thanks for any help
Barry in Baltimore
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erinatkins
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From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 7:31:14
Barry,
We do charge customers for additional search engine work. I tell customers it can take up to 3-4 months to get in most of the search engines. If they go with the program I submit them every month.
I submit all sites we design to the search engines one time free.
Most of the customers are very happy with the results & call to thank me.
Our pricing is lower than they find on line. If you have any questions you can email me direct.
Erin
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_gail
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RE: RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 7:43:48
quote:
ORIGINAL: erinatkins
If they go with the program I submit them every month.
I submit all sites we design to the search engines one time free.
Erin
Hi Erin,
I' ve either misunderstood or confused. I recall reading elsewhere that you were only supposed to submit to a search engine once. So that notion is incorrect, correct? Is so, I gotta get to work.
thanks, gail
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erinatkins
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:12:33
Gail,
If the website changes - they can be resubmitted every month. This way you can try to stay in the top of your categories.
We will not use spam techniques. We do not do gateway pages. Many Search Engines will allow you to be submitted 1 time a month if you made changes. More than once a month can be considered spam.
If you do a search under SEO - you will see that there are people who do monthly - others that do once. I have had better results when we stay on top of it. My customers see there rankings increase.
Erin
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_gail
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RE: RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:30:37
quote:
ORIGINAL: erinatkins
If the website changes - they can be resubmitted every month. This way you can try to stay in the top of your categories.
What is considered a change? Is, for example, adding a new picture a change? Or changing a meta tag, etc? Or must the changes be major?
Not sure I' ve heard the term gateway pages; what are they?
quote:
there are people who do monthly - others that do once. I have had better results when we stay on top of it. My customers see there rankings increase.
But if the goal of SEO is to increase rankings for clients, then why would anyone do it only once (other than a client not paying monthly maintenence)?
Erin
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garry
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From: Northern Territory Outback Australia
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:30:53
Gail & others
Always check your listings after 2 months or so & if not included try again.
Many engines cycle in 4 or 6 weekly updates (or longer)
Once in Google, and many of the others you should be spidered again each cycle and hence no need to resubmit.
If you submit again to DMOZ when you are listed, they may email you and suggest you do not try to be listed again as it is spam.......(or is it only me who has had an email) and they will remove you altogether.
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:36:44
Real search engine optimization and positioning is an incedibly time consuming task. Submitting is one thing, monitoring the position of the site, and of its competitors, in various search engines, taking measures to inprove that position and measuring the results of changed positions and so on takes a LOT of time.
Also the thing is not just adding metatags and submitting. Deciding on optimal keywords, where and how they should be used within the text of the site and chaning these as circumstances a competitors also change can all involve very considerable work and time.
I tend to offer clients 2 services.
1. Search Engine Submission
Includes:
- submission to free SEs and Directories
- Research about and submission to up to 5 niche directories (more optionally for an additional charge)
- Optionally submission to paid search engines
2. Search Engine Optimization
A far more detailed procedure and one which I pass to a colleague who is very good at it and has the patience for it which I lack.
In both cases the desicion on which to go with is made BEFORE the site is started.
If they go for 1 the first thing we do, before any design or copywriting is done, is decide on keywords and phrases. It is really after the event to go back and do this when the site is already built.
If they go for option 2 the SEO person is on board from the start, is involved in copyediting and in advising about the position and order of the text content of the site, as well as other things like research niche SEs, seeking out potential sites to link to, looking in some detail at what the competition are doing and so on. The site in this case is build with SE positioning in the forefront of everyones mind.
I think also that regular resubmission is pointless in the case of most SEs and pretty much all directories, unless you have disappeared from them (which needs to be monitored - more time!) or have made such radical changes that the URL to the listed pages has changed. Once you are in a directry you sit there unless your site is removed for some reason, once in an SE you are going to be respidered regularly anyway.
Changes made to the pages, often with the direct purpose of improving postion, will be picked up automatically at each new spidering. The advice used to be to make regular resubmissions, but this has largely changed now with the way the SEs are working.
It will either be ignored, at best, or counted as spam at worst.
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 9/10/2002 8:38:29 AM >
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abbeyvet
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:49:57
quote:
Not sure I' ve heard the term gateway pages; what are they?
Gateway pages are pages created specifically for, and optimised for, a particular search engine.
So, a site might have one for Google, one for ALtavista, one for AlltheWeb and so on. Each would take account of the algorithm in use by that SE for ranking sites and try to create a page that fits it as near perfectly as possible.
Programmes such as WebPostionGold will make them for you.
They can be a useful technique, if used with extreme caution. The pages need to be actually useful to and readable by a real person. There was a tendancy in the past to creat somewhat odd pages, that ranked well but made no real sense to a genuine user. There are various cloaking methods still in use I believe to do this still, that is to say they serve up one version of a page to SE spiders but if a real user clicks the link to that page they get a ' real' page instead.
They are fraught with danger though. As a rule search engines dislike them and look upon them as trickery. The purpose of search engines is to return the real relevant results that the searcher wants. They see gateway pages as an attmept to deflect searchers and a site can be delisted for using them.
I have always been of the opinion that if yu have a site that really, genuinely, contains the information that people want and have written that copy well and in the knowledge of the general importance of relevant keywords and phrases you should not have to resort to trickery. I know there are very competitive areas where getting any sort of a leg up on the opposition counts but nevertheless, a good site will florish in any competition.
The SEO person I use is of a similar mind and that is why I choose to work with her.
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 8:57:22
quote:
The changes are made to pages not ranked well & we resubmit those.
Making those sort of changes makes sense, but they will be picked up by the SEs whether you resubmit or not. If the page is listed it is listed and it will be respidered at whatever interval that is done.
quote:
We have never gotten a letter for SPAM
I am not saying that you are spammng, just wasting effort as the resubmissions make no sense. I doubt you ever will get a letter about spam, even if you did spam search engines they would not bother to contact you to discuss it, they will just drop you and will have you on a banned list so that resubmission is pointless. You will have to try to contact real people to try and get removed from that list. Don' t fancy going that road myself.
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erinatkins
Posts: 3072
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 9:12:58
quote:
I am not saying that you are spamming, just wasting effort as the resubmission make no sense. I doubt you ever will get a letter about spam, even if you did spam search engines they would not bother to contact you to discuss it, they will just drop you and will have you on a banned list so that resubmission is pointless. You will have to try to contact real people to try and get removed from that list. Don' t fancy going that road myself.
In the 2 1/2 years we have been doing this we have never had a problem like this. I have seen sites where they gotten bad for using gateway pages or putting words in back ground color. We have stayed away from all the devious tricks people use.
The submittals we do seem to work well for us.
Erin
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barry
Posts: 739
Joined: 6/26/2002
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 10:49:06
GREAT Conversation!!!
OK, much of what I have read confirms that there is more to SEO then simple submissions.
Gail = " I' m not sure a small company with a small website or budget can afford or necessarily needs one."
My feelings is that owning multiple e-commerce sites I can' t imagine NOT having the work done. My biggest fear is that 1) nothing happens 2) I get black listed
It seems that the rules of engagement are always changing, as well as different techniques used by each SEO. Thus, I am sure that I need a pro now the question is how to evaluate?
Suggestions?
Thanks a bunch!
Barry
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 11:15:50
Yes, hiring an SEO is worth it if you find the right one. There is a lot more to optimization than what has been discussed so far in this thread.
Monthly submissions are ineffective. There are only a couple of free submit SE' s left that are of any value to most web sites, Google being one of them. In fact, Google prefers that you not use their free submit option and allow their spider to find you. All you need is a link from a site that is already listed in Google and has good PR (5 or above).
I' ll assume there are a few here using WPG for ranking reports. Watch yourself! If you are running reports on Google, you stand a chance of losing access to their search engine (banned IP) and a possible PR penalty for your own site.
Once you' ve been indexed and appear in the SERP' s (Search Engine Results Pages), there is no need to resubmit. Spider based SE' s have an indexing schedule that they follow. Pages that have changed since their last spidering indicate that when the spider comes back for a reindex. The header that is sent shows a last revised date.
The industry has changed dramatically over the past 12 months. Its a Pay to Play landscape and there are very few free resources left. I' d guess that those free resources that are left, will move into a paid model within the next 6 to 12 months.
If you want top positions and quality traffic, then get your checkbook out! Its no longer a free ride and you' ll only achieve minimal results without the paid placements.
You are going to need a professional to assist with the paid placements. There are certain guidelines that need to be followed and optimization is still a requirement prior to submitting to some of the paid placement resources, Inktomi being one of them. Although, it looks like Ink may be in trouble based on the latest reports. They may not be a viable resource come the end of this year.
< Message edited by pageoneresults -- 9/10/2002 11:18:26 AM >
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_gail
Posts: 2874
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RE: RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 11:18:12
quote:
ORIGINAL: barry
Thus, I am sure that I need a pro now the question is how to evaluate?
Suggestions?
Barry, in all my years doing business, I' ve found the best way to evauluate is to seek a recommendation from one or more persons you respect who have worked with a subcontractor.
In this case, I' d make a couple of email contacts with people who post at Outfront. There are many threads on SEO so doing a search and finding people who have used a specialist should not be difficult.
gail
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 11:21:52
A quick note for those using WPG. Do not use the URL verification feature. This is like sticking a target on the website that you are checking ranking for. If you do this and have Google selected, that website you are checking rank for could end up with a PR0 penalty.
If you must run reports, deselect Google from the queries. Your Yahoogle results will show how well you may be positioned in Google since Yahoo utilizes Google results for its web pages.
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 11:29:33
I' m involved with SEO/SEM on a daily basis. So much so that it consumes 4-6 hours of my average day. After doing this since late 1995 and seeing all the fly by night companies that have infiltrated the industry, I thought it was time for a quality resource to step in and offer a directory of consultants who meet a basic set of guidelines that fall under the realm of Best Practices in SEO.
You may want to start reading here as we' ve put a lot of time and hard work into developing our directory and keeping up with the latest trends in the market.
[url=" http://www.seoconsultants.com/which-seo-to-choose.htm" ]Choosing a Search Engine Optimization Company[/url]
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abbeyvet
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 11:53:33
To get back to the original question, which I believe was Do you need an SEO specialist - I would say the answer is an unambiguous maybe. 
It really does depend on so many things, and these are just a few:
1. Is search engine position really important to you?
It is not for everyone surprisingly enough. Some people do not use their site for the purpose of gaining customers but rather for supporting existing ones, and in that case you can just tell them where it is.
2. How general are your important keywords?
You really need to think about your keywords and if they are very general and popular then you may need help, if they are more spcifc and/or less common then you will have less difficulty getting a good position.
For example, using my own site as an example, if I wanted to be at the top of Google for the phrase ' web designer' then I am going to need heavy duty and expensive optimisation and will still probably never make it. If I focus on the phrase ' Ireland Web Design' I am competing in a smaller yet still competitive pool and with some work should get good if not top rankings, if I want the top it will cost me. However if I am really only interested in local clients then getting to the top for ' Kilkenny web design' should be fairly easy - and indeed it is.
3. The amount of money you or your client are willing to spend.
Sites can be on a very tight budget, that is a reality, and with the increasing number of pay for inclusion search engines that budget need to be carefully spent. It may be that it just won' t stretch to SEO specialists. Some of them would undoubtedly say that without them it was doomed to failure anyway, but if the budget is bust then the business may be bust and a top position will be of little use to it then.
4. The amount of time you or your client are willing to spend
As with most things SEO is complex but it is not rocket science - if you are willing and able to pay a cost in time you sure can do it yourself. For people who own their own sites and like to be in full control of them, this is often a good road. You do need to subscribe to good newsletters, read sites such as http://www.searchenginewatch.com and generally keep up to date with what is going on. It IS time consuming, but it most certainly can be done.
For those making sites for others it behoves us to keep generally up to date and to be able to offer a good basic submission service, which may be all the bulk of our clients need.
5. What your priorites are
For some pursuit of the top spot becomes obsessive. It would be well to pause sometimes and wonder what the effect would be of putting the same time and effort in to supporting existing customers, providing them with great service, an improved and regularly updated site, better value even, and see what effect that has on referrals.
Sure, in an ideal world you would do everything, but in the real world choices have to be made, budgets allocated and priorities set.
6. How badly or well you are doing with the simple stuff
In very, very many cases submission to the major players, including the paid ones or some of them anyway, by someone with a reasonably good knowledge of what they are doing, who has taken a little time to research the main key words and phrases and has carefully followed the (generally very well documented) submissions procedures, will be enough. The site will be do just fine thank you.
7. The Type of site/business
This is really my answer to
quote:
do those who use a SEO specialist recommend this route for every job no matter how large or small, no matter what type of business
No. For most sites I will discuss (and usually explain) search engines at the very outset and describe the basic service as above. I do let all know that a specialist service is available if they want it now or at a later stage but I do not heavily see/promote it to most clients. Apart form anything else if you start heaping cost upon cost at this stage you may lose ' em altogether.
The criteria I use to decide whether I will really sotrongly recommed the service are:
a. If the site will be the businesses primary way of getting clients/customers
b. If the main keywords and phrase are particularly competitive AND the site is a major may of getting new clients/customers
To take three examples.
- A site for a company providing consultancy for film scriptwriters.
The market is competitive and international and they are hoping to attract more than half of their clients via their site. They are using an SEO specialist.
- A site for a local buiders providers.
Their market is almost entirely local (or at least regional), they hope to get new customers via the site but will definiitely not realy on it. It is a simple matter to tell their existing customers about it. For this site it is really most important that they are found in searches on their business name (easy peasy!) and that they are in local nuche directories. No SEO specialist required.
- A site for a company manufacuring a product it hopes to sell world wide and for whom getting new clients and agencies via the web is vital. But the product is a very specific and unusual one with no more that 4 or 5 companies making it world wide. Thus it is easy to rank well in searches. No SEO specialist required.
8. Where are you in Google?
For the moment anyway that is really your main question, whether or not it is a good thing the truth is that Google is more important to most sites than just about anywhere else, or even everywhere else. This is good news for those who do not want to spend fortunes because Google is really trying to find you! If you have good content that is relevant to the search it will.
Unless you are in a really competitive area I genuinely beleive that minimal work on the SE optimization stuff per se and maximum time just making your site the best and most relevant it can be will bring you sucess with Google.
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 9/10/2002 12:09:09 PM >
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_gail
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From: So FL
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RE: RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 13:08:14
quote:
ORIGINAL: Texjd
Won' t this subject ever die.
Do birds fly? Will there always be websites and search engines? Will technology change? Should we try to keep up to date? Will there always be someone with a question in need of an answer?
gail
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_gail
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RE: RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/11/2002 15:10:23
And didn' t Katherine and others give us many insights here that augmented or presented new information not necessarily touched upon in the other threads, Texjd?!
Sometimes people asking the same questions in different ways can bring fresh ideas to an old subject. What about that fairly new community member here who never heard of SEO?! They wouldn' t even know to search the subject. But they may see it today in " Today' s Posts" or tomorrow in " Most Active Topics" and they will become more educated because of it.
For example, I personally never saw Erin share so much about how she does SEO. It was of particular help to me because most of my clients will not opt to go with a specialist. That means if yours truly gets the job, I want to know what I' m doing, do it correctly, efficiently and be up to date about SEO.
I believe Pageoneresults may be among only a few experts in the field of SEO who participate in these forums; he has brought us new information and kept us up to date in this thread. His own site presents a wealth of SEO information, and I make use of it when I need to.
Katherine, and only the good Lord knows where she gets the time, always presents an insightful, thorough and an informed perspective on subjects. I wouldn' t one iota pretend to know her mind, but my guess is that she wouldn' t have shared all she did here if she thought the questions or the direction of this thread were old hat.
I learned from your post here, too, Texjd.
I try to always do a search before posting most questions. But a search does not always bring up the results I' m looking for.
I am glad barry posted the question! And because of the way information was presented, I' ve learned more about SEO in this one thread than in most others combined. And I' ve read most, if not all of them, and participated in many. Even did searches on the subject. 
gail
< Message edited by _gail -- 9/10/2002 3:35:19 PM >
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Doug G
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/12/2002 0:13:48
I am finding this thread very interesting, and appreciate all the valuable insights.
Texjd, being a relative newcomer if this thread hadn' t happened I never would know there are 50+ other threads on this subject. This isn' t a subject I would be searching for for any reason, but I' m glad it popped to the forefront.
$0000.02
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Thomas Brunt
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RE: SEO Firms - Worth the Money? - 9/12/2002 8:56:43
I still can' t figure out if I should be hiring someone for SEO. I haven' t done any in 4 years. Someone else did a little bit for me about 2 years ago. Google and Yahoo seem to like us anyway. I can' t imagine that there' s a heck of a lot of improvement to be done as far as placement with those.
It seems to me that even total success with other SE' s would not amount to enough to pay for the service. That' s an uneducated guess on my part, however.
t
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