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abbeyvet
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From: Kilkenny Ireland
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CSS and Search Engines - 9/20/2002 9:15:36
Here is one that has me flummoxed. I would really value opinions on this.
I recently completed a site for which postioning in SEs will be both important and competitive. The owners of the site have hired a SE specialist, someone I don' t know. Don' t know his name, anything about him or his service.
My clients contacted me to say that this guy says........I think I will quote a slightly edited version of the email I got here:
quote:
He said that a CSS site is not as
search engine friendly as pure HTML. He is suggesting that the CSS site can
be used for sponsored listings, but wants to create an entirely HTML version, using the .net instead of the .com extension, for submission to all the other search engines.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
My initial thought was simply ' Huh????'
I have spoken to my client who says he assured them that the other site look the same etc.
This rings some alarm bells with me and I am a little concerned. Am I right to be? Is there something in what this guy says?
<edit>Corrected typo in thread title.</edit>
< Message edited by pageoneresults -- 9/19/2002 11:37:48 AM >
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erinatkins
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RE: CSS and Search Rngines - 9/20/2002 9:57:15
Abbyvet
There are conflicting thoughts on this. You might want to look at this article on this here
There are pros & con' s for this & many opinions. I have seen CSS work on some site & not as well on others.
Pure html taking advantage of alt tags can help a site. Since I am at work right now I can not get as detailed as I would like. I will check back later.
Erin
< Message edited by erinatkins -- 9/19/2002 11:14:07 AM >
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: CSS and Search Rngines - 9/20/2002 10:16:13
Thanks Erin, thats an interesting article but it doesn' t really refer to what I am talking about. The only thing it really speaks of in that regard is the importance of the <h1> tags, and other header tags, for search engines but I cannot see how using CSS would have any effect on that.
For example how could a search engine prefer this:
quote:
<h1><b><font size=" 3" face=" Verdana" color=" #476442" >Some Text</font></b></h1>
or this
quote:
<h1 style=" color: #476442; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold" > Some Text</h1>
to this
quote:
<h1>Some Text</h1>
All do much the same thing but to me anyway the first two are a mess!
It baffles me and this article does not suggest that they do - I gathr what it is referring to is the use of tags other than the header tags to style what headlines look like on the page. But that would be bad practice from a SE point of view whether CSS was used or not. The CSS is not the issue there really.
Using CSS has no effect whatsoever on either the need or the ability to use alt tags so that cannot be an issue.
I am not really too sure what either you or him mean by ' pure HTML' ?? Not using CSS means essentially reverting to an old standard and I cannot see how that could be a good thing to do from any point of view.
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 9/19/2002 10:25:04 AM >
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Andy from Spain
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RE: CSS and Search Rngines - 9/20/2002 10:35:30
Hi Katherine
My personal feeling is that it is complete rubbish, I' ve had a similar thing happen to me and it seems it was the case of justifying being employed and finding fault, and hence getting some money out of it - what would happen if the person said, " Yeah, that' s perfect" ?
I can see absolutely nothing negative about using CSS as far as search engines are concerned.
I would ask for a report and evidence from the SE guru.
Cheers
Andy
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abbeyvet
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From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: CSS and Search Rngines - 9/20/2002 10:41:10
quote:
1- The use of CSS vs. pure HTML as they relate to SEO;
2- Alarm bells - your client bringing in someone AFTER the job is done and, it seems, not even telling you about it before you started the job
On 1. I just think what this guy is saying is rubbish
On 2. I have no problem at all with this - this site definitely needs some SEO, it is a very competitive area. I hate that work personally and am perfectly happy that some one else do it.
No, the alarm bells were because I was concerned that my client was about to be ripped off or that the site wsa going to be ' optimized' right out of the search engines!!
I am curious to know if there is ANYTHING that might give some validity to what he says though.
I think Andy may have hit the nail on the head, and I did suggest right away that they get a detailed report about what is planned in the optimisation with the rationale behind it all.
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 9/19/2002 10:42:55 AM >
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pageoneresults
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/20/2002 11:22:18
Katherine, thanks for your email. I can personally attest to the fact that css used properly is of great benefit in a site optimization. In fact, I can show you at least 5 sites, all built using css, that rank extremely high in their industries (#1 thru #10 spots).
> He said that a CSS site is not as search engine friendly as pure HTML.
Wrong! Its the other way around, html is not as search engine friendly as css. Think about it. When a spider indexes your site, it goes through the html code starting at the top, going left to right, working its way towards the bottom. Some spiders are programmed to grab only a certain amount of content (in Google' s case 101k).
With css, I can position the core content right after the <body> tag with very few html tags. In fact, take a look at our directory (my signature) and look at how the content is positioned in the html. Many people who have looked find it extremely baffling because they are not used to seeing code appear at the bottom of the page when it should be at the top. That is because they are not familiar with css and absolute positioning.
The goal is to strip out as much html as possible and present the indexing spiders with the core content as soon as possible. Having an <h1> right after your <body> tag has much more power than having it after 30 to 50 lines of table code that contains navigation graphics, and other non-important stuff.
> He is suggesting that the CSS site can be used for sponsored listings, but wants to create an entirely HTML version, using the .net instead of the .com extension, for submission to all the other search engines.
Rubbish! Why would someone want to break away from the mainstream TLD (top level domain) .com and use a .net? I don' t understand that approach and I' ve been doing this since late 1995. Maybe this person knows something that I don' t. But, I doubt it. I spend at least 2-3 hours per day keeping in tune with the latest industry trends (up to the minute). Not once in my time doing SEO have I heard anyone say that css is not search engine friendly. Or, not as search engine friendly as html, that is an outright lie, or someone does not know what they are talking about.
It sounds like this person wants to create two sites with duplicate content. That should raise a red flag for anyone who is familiar with SEO. If there is a secondary site with dup content, there are some very technical aspects that need to be addressed before promoting either one. Duplicate content is the number one reason for getting penalized or banned from an SE' s index. If one of your competitors finds it, they can be real nasty and start sending spam complaints to the various SE' s. It may take some time before they are addressed, but, when they are, poof, you' re gone!
Katherine, send your client to this topic and have them participate. I' d be happy to offer as much advice as I can to help them understand that this person is not telling them the truth, or, they do not know the truth based on the latest design trends. CSS is here to stay, its just now becoming mainstream and those who are using it properly have reaped the rewards of sites that validate and sites that have a very high text to html ratio which is what you are aiming for when optimizing html content. I can personally tell you based on research, testing and experience, that css sites that are built and optimized properly will rise to the top quickly. They are also more cross browser compatible when built by someone who knows how each of the major browsers interpret various css elements.
< Message edited by pageoneresults -- 9/19/2002 11:22:47 AM >
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_gail
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RE: RE: CSS and Search Rngines - 9/20/2002 11:33:00
Re: #2 - thanks for clarifying.
Re: #1 - as I previously implied, I hate to make comments...and rarely do...about an area I' m only vaguely familiar with. But because of your expertise to pinpoint any error, I' ll take a bit of a chance. If I' m totally off base, I' ll delete this reply.
Everything I' m currently studying seems to point to css as the way to go. If I understand it correctly, the move from html to xhtml almost requires that css be used.
Since we are in a transitional stage right now, it seems to me that institutions of higher learning and organizations such as the WWW Consortium would not be promoting the use of CSS if they felt it would be unfriendly to search engines and impede search engine results.
Hot off the press:
" ...One of the w3c' s primary goals is to make the Web universally accessible....
" w3c Recommendations include Extensible Hypertext Markup Language, Cascading Stylesheets, HyperText Markup Language and Extensible Markup language." [emphasis mine]
Internet & World Wide Web: How to Program, Deitel, 2002, 2000.
It strikes me that eliminating CSS would be backward, rather than forward looking and, if I am correct, a client should be apprised of that fact.
g
gail
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001
From: Orange, CA USA
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/20/2002 11:45:16
One important factor here is how the css is used. I' m going to go a little off topic here and tell you that it can be used to spam. There is a technique of positioning content off the screen, not viewable to the end user but it can be seen by the indexing spiders. I call this css cloaking. I' ve not seen it too much because few know about it and I will not describe it in detail here so someone can try it out. It works, but, puts you in a very high risk zone. Competitors can be real nasty at times, especially when they see you' ve done something to trick the SE.
If they are savvy, a quick look at your CSS can put you in jail. Javascript can be used the same way and is not as easy to detect as a css trick. When we review websites for a listing in our directory, we have a little tool that gives us quick access to all external css and js. If we see anything that is being used to trick search engines, we decline the listing. Again, I won' t discuss those tricks here as I don' t want any of you trying them out. If you want to travel down that path, you need to figure it out for yourself and then take responsibility for your actions.
< Message edited by pageoneresults -- 9/19/2002 11:45:39 AM >
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erinatkins
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/20/2002 13:42:22
Abbyvet & others -
I posted the link because the subject was brought up. I read quite a few articles & take each for what they are worth.
quote:
css sites that are built and optimized properly will rise to the top quickly That is a key point. Some people do not do it properly & cause problems as stated quote:
used to spam or do other things
I have seen some sites get taken off some of the search engines because of doing some unlegitet things - however most of these things can also be done with html coding.
Many people do not use CSS correctly & when used incorrectly HTML would be better.
CSS sites can get as high a rating when optimized properly.
quote:
He is suggesting that the CSS site can be used for sponsored listings, but wants to create an entirely HTML version, using the .net instead of the .com extension, for submission to all the other search engines Makes no sense to me. I know people who would report him if they saw 2 sites with the same information by the same company.
As long as the site is created well & optimized the search engines should not be a problem.
What I was trying to say about html is that many people forget the alt tags when they can be used to help the optimization.
I would also make sure that that if they are using CSS that they are not using hidden layers? You run a risk when using hidden layers, although it is mainly when reviewed by humans that users of hidden layers are caught. Using hidden layers through CSS allows ypeople to include links and keyword rich content that is not viewable to the visitor, and is food for the search engine robots.
Erin
< Message edited by erinatkins -- 9/19/2002 2:35:10 PM >
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/20/2002 15:20:58
Thank you all people, I appreciate your input.
I have sent the URL of this to my client and I know your input will be appreciated there also. I admit that I was 99% certain when I posted initially that there was nothing in this ' theory' . but I didn' t want to make harsh judgments on it without getting some more opinions.
Thanks again
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d_pipkin
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RE: RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/21/2002 8:01:22
Thank you for your detailed response.
I apologise in advance if it isn' t in good form to quote people directly, but thought it might be the best way to give his point of view short of inviting him to this forum.
I initially thought the person working on SEO meant that an html version would be better for all search engines as I quote what he sent below:
" Do you have a regular html version of your site? If not I' ll have to figure out a way to convert your CSS (cascading style sheets) pages to ensure the engines will rank you properly. (couple options there)"
Then when I asked how he would do that, the response was:
" We can use your current css site for the sponsored listings, because it' s completely compatible with that model. And as a solution to our css site quandary, we can build an optimized site for the search engines, that will look like your css site, but with the more, " ranking friendly" html code..
Same logo and similar site design.. but " SEO" coded to the max. (We can crank that out pretty quickly.) That will give you an opportunity to double your exposure!"
This set up would have been for free, not sure about maintenance though. When I said that I didn' t want to have a second site to deal with and asked why html is better, the response was as follows:
" Alta Vista and Inktomi are two engines that are a bit behind the curve.
These engines just seem to love older html code. However there are ways to work around them with CSS."
Is the issue of duplicate content a definite black ball thing to do, or is there some debate out on that?
My big concern here is that if he is suggesting something that is not kosher, then what else will he recommend that is risky but I may accept as I don' t know about SEO. I don' t want to be banned from SEs out of ignorance. I want someone who will not compromise or risk our name and integrity at all!
Thank you kindly for your input.
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pageoneresults
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/21/2002 12:17:51
Hello d_pipkin, welcome to Outfront!
They said...
> Do you have a regular html version of your site? If not I' ll have to figure out a way to convert your CSS (cascading style sheets) pages to ensure the engines will rank you properly.
It sounds like they may not be familiar with css and have only worked with html. If they were keen on css, I would have expected a response like...
> Do you have a css version of your site? If not I' ll have to figure out a way to convert your html (hypertext markup language) pages to ensure the engines will rank you properly.
They also said...
> And as a solution to our css site quandary, we can build an optimized site for the search engines, that will look like your css site, but with the more, " ranking friendly" html code.
Again, I think they may not know how to work with css. This is a common issue as css is just becoming mainstream and few understand the benefits it brings to the table besides optimization.
The only real difference between css and html is the amount of code used to present your content to the surfing public and to the spider based search engines.
> That will give you an opportunity to double your exposure!
Eek! You don' t want to double anything unless there are some technical aspects in place to prevent the spider based SE' s from grabbing duplicate content. If duplicate content is detected, both domains are at risk of being penalized or removed from the search engines index.
There are very few instances where secondary domains are required for promotion. Sites that are heavy with graphics, built with Flash, or the dreaded 3, 4 or 5 frame site structures. 2 frame site structures are okay if they are built correctly.
They then said...
> Alta Vista and Inktomi are two engines that are a bit behind the curve. These engines just seem to love older html code. However there are ways to work around them with CSS.
Hehehe! Ink actually likes css sites better than html, I can prove that! Ink likes sites that validate to the W3C standard. If anyone has used their PFI (Pay For Inclusion) service, you' ll know that they include a link next to each URL you' ve paid for inclusion that checks your code to see if it validates. If it doesn' t, there really isn' t a big issue. It just goes to show you that they are looking for sites that come close to validation. I' ve seen very few pure html sites that validate. The ones that do, don' t look real pretty due to the limitation of pure html.
Alta Vista? Who is that? I don' t pay much attention to them these days as they account for less than 3% of my clients traffic and I have over 15 active SEO clients at the moment. Google is by far the dominating force and in some instances accounts for almost 90% of some clients traffic. That is not a good thing, but, we have no choice. The visitors to those sites like using Google!
CSS is a way to reduce html code bloat. Even working with basic css and stripping out all the font tags is of great benefit when optimizing html code. The one single major benefit of css is content positioning. As stated above, spiders index in a particular manner, they start at the top, work their way from left to right until they reach the bottom.
Some spiders are programmed to index only a certain amount of code. Once it reaches its limit of code indexing, it moves on to the next page. With html designs, you typically have a large amount of code that precedes the core content of that page.
Let' s say that the spider only indexes 100k of html. If your site has heavy graphics, rollovers, nested tables, etc. that is quite a bit of code for the spider to traverse. If that code represents 80k of the allowed 100k, then you better hope that the remaining 20k is the content you want indexed. If not, you' ve just missed an opportunity.
With css, that problem is non-existent. Now we can position the core content right up there after the <body> tag and give the spider 80k of content we want indexed instead of 80k of layout code. Which would you prefer?
I' m not saying that html sites cannot rank highly, they do all the time. Its the previous generation of design. CSS is the next generation of design and has many advantages over html. Not only is it search engine friendly, but it reduces the maintenance factor of the site dramatically. So, you don' t like that background color on all 500 pages? No problem, we' ll change the color in the style sheet and viola, all 500 pages are updated. Much easier than doing a find and replace routine to change individual page elements.
> Is the issue of duplicate content a definite black ball thing to do, or is there some debate out on that?
Definitely a black ball thing to do. Its done all the time, but, the risk factor is not worth it in most instances. If you have a one time promotion (holiday) and you need to get visibility quickly, then some may resort to secondary domains hosted on their server, not yours. Some may also host them on your server, either way, the risk factor is too great if you are looking for long term solutions. There is always debate on this subject and as it stands now, the general consensus is that it is high risk. If you have a strong brand to protect, do not travel down this path unless you are working with one of the top professionals in this industry. Even then, a savvy competitor may be able to figure out what you are doing and cause some problems for you.
> My big concern here is that if he is suggesting something that is not kosher, then what else will he recommend that is risky but I may accept as I don' t know about SEO.
It sounds as though you' ve already made a commitment to this person. If so, then there isn' t much we can tell you that will change your mind. If you' ve not made the commitment, please, investigate this further and locate another firm who will optimize your site and be able to work with the css.
Based on your response and theirs, it sure sounds like these people are cloaking. If that is the case, get out of there quickly. Cloaking is used everyday. Cloaked sites that are not done properly find themselves penalized and/or banned from a variety of search engines. Don' t get me wrong, there are cloakers who are very good at what they do and they are usually working in highly competitive industries.
Stick with a traditional optimization and set aside a budget for PPC (Pay Per Click) and CPC (Cost Per Click). The current trend is pay to play. If you are serious about your online brand, you' ll want to play by the rules and stay away from anything that presents a high risk factor. Or, any risk factor for that matter.
Good luck!
P.S. I sure hope you are not working with one of the members from our directory! ;)
< Message edited by pageoneresults -- 9/20/2002 12:25:29 PM >
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Andy from Spain
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RE: CSS and Search Engines - 9/21/2002 13:56:31
Good post above.
I would be extremely worried about using a company for SEO that are talking such nonsense. Doubling your exposure is rubbish, if there was any difference between using or not CSS, then the the site that used the CSS would possibly be more friendly but only because of the streamlining of code and getting your content further up the page (tricks apart).
Suggesting site duplication ranks alongside hiding keywords in the page background - of course the desicion is yours, but my feeling, without knowing any other details than the ones above, is that they don' t have a clue, and that comes from a non-expert.
Cheers
Andy
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