writing web content rip-off? (Full Version)

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Helene -> writing web content rip-off? (9/24/2002 15:35:35)

You' re a great bunch of members, so I' ll try this questions here, though there isn' t an exact category for it.

How do you get paid for web content? As well as being a web developer etc., I' m also a writer. Until now if I was writing content for one of my website clients, I just billed for the writing time at the same rate as the other work I was doing for them, but now a new issue has come up.

I have a print-based client -- a magazine for which I' ve been writing a regular monthly article for, since 1986. They pay me well (.25/word) and we have a good long distance relationship. Now the magazine has gone on line with a slick interactive site. They' ve just sent all their writers a new contract that gives them first rights to publication AND rights to web publishing, INCLUDING articles writen in the past!!!

Okay. I' m not going to sign this. I don' t feel it' s right to publish my past articles (for which they only had " first right of publication" ) on to a web site which will be using these to help sell products.

What I' m wondering is this . . . has anyone here been paid for such content and how? Should I simply sell the internet rights seperately as a one-off, or should I try and get compensated in some other way.

Writing for the web really is a topic in itself. If anyone knows of another respectable forum where I might post this, feel free to let me know.

Thanks all -



abbeyvet -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/25/2002 8:29:13)

I don' t know of a writers forum but I do subscribe to a mailing list that is specific to writers and where you would certainly get plenty of good opinion on this.

Go here: http://www.adventive.com/ and sign up for the iContent and iCopywriting lists.

Some of the other lists are also pretty good.



_gail -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/25/2002 9:27:48)

Helene,

quote:



They' ve just sent all their writers a new contract that gives them first rights to publication AND rights to web publishing, INCLUDING articles writen in the past!!!

Okay. I' m not going to sign this. I don' t feel it' s right to publish my past articles (for which they only had " first right of publication" ) on to a web site which will be using these to help sell products.



Only you can determine how not signing the contract will effect your long-term business relationship or if it really matters, financially or otherwise. I wouldn' t sign away my rights either but I' d sure look into seeing what other alternatives are available, even if it meant contacting an attorney. If you don' t want to lose your client, perhaps there other options you could negotiate for the contract.

gail



Reflect -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/25/2002 10:23:34)

Hi Helene,

I think if you wrap a little SEO knowledge into the vast knowledge that I feel you already have it would be a definite edge. I trained, I mean this nicely, my wife for this aspect. I research the keywords and key phrases. I then hand that to my very talented wife and she goes to town. Between she and I we hit a lot of top rankings for what we target. Also, on the SEO/writer front, you can upsell your abilities. You have a contact, they request 5 pages of optimized content. You view their existing site and see they only have another 5 pages. Well the more on topic/themed content the more chances to rank high on SERPs. The more returns, the more traffic. More targeted traffic on very specific searches will lead to convertible sales. It sort of feeds the wallet.

Anyway I am rambling now so on to the link. I think this would open your eyes to approaches and thoughts...

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum44/index.htm

I' ve been hanging out on that forum for a while and they are ALSO a great bunch of people (not that they can compare to the likes of this board).

Brian

Brian



Helene -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/25/2002 13:28:40)

Thanks for the links folks -- very good and much appreciated.

Reflect: as for the SEO training you mentioned , I heartily agree. I' ve been staying current with SEO practices from day one but that isn' t reflected in my client sites because most of them don' t have deep enough pockets to justify (in their opinion) spending money on SEO. I run a very small business here for other small businesses and many of them improve their sites sporadically, only as they can afford to do so. In terms of promotion, sometimes it is just more feasible for them to spend the same amount on direct advertising to their target market than on SEO. I always tell the client what is best for them, not for me. I think that may be one reason I have never been short of work.

(Nor do I have the time to implement a SEO campaign for all my clients as I am the one who does everything here. I only farm out a few little coding jobs as necessary.)

The SEO thing is a great niche to develop, I agree, as it appears (for the time being anyway) to be an area where the average site owner and many developers won' t be able to stay current. I' ve seen the SEO field become more and more specialized over the years and yes, though improtant, it is so fickle as to drive me (for one) crazy.

Now who' s rambling?



Reflect -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/25/2002 15:21:01)

quote:

Now who' s rambling?


Had to wipe my monitor off from that one, thanks [;)].

I can see what you are saying by all means. I do not do it full time, I just use this as an added option/perk. I will do the base optimization when doing a site, it' s just habit, no charge. Word of mouth gets me more business that way. When a client says " Wow, can you do more of this" at that point they have made a choice.

I am not one of those who wants your first born to optimize your site. Nor am I one who will boost the rankings via short terms effects, those get me really upset but I digress.

Brian



Seventh -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/26/2002 16:04:04)

I may be a little late on this one but you may still get this.

I do some freelance writing for a local ' rag mag weekly' that happens to be the biggest independent and free weekly in Michigan. They approached me about a new contract that involved using my articles for the web as well.

I had my attorney modify the contract in the best interest of me and the client (read I get to keep writing and they get to keep paying me). It involved a 50% increase in the fee and I now owned 50% of the rights to the article should it be bought, sold or reproduced for profit or syndication on any site other than the one(s) agreed upon. Also, if they publish it on their sister site or any site that has an affiliation with the weekly, I get a flat fee of $100 plus any incidentals plus ' royalties' .

How did this work out? I now make three times as much profit on one article. I get a residual income (sorta) from reproduction of the article. And my relationship is still in good standing.

It also helped that my lawyer was their lawyer also. So where' s the advantage to that? I paid for his last two years in law school when his family had financial troubles. It always feels good when the people you help out in their time of need return the favor.



Helene -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/26/2002 16:47:08)

Thanks Seventh, that' s exactly the kind of creative approach I was hoping to hear about. It' s very close to what I was considering.

quote:

Also, if they publish it on their sister site or any site that has an affiliation with the weekly, I get a flat fee of $100 plus any incidentals plus ' royalties' .


I wonder if you could elaborate on what you mean by " royalties" from publication on the sister site. How does one get royalties for web publication? Are you talking traffic-based royalties, or a commission if/when your article is being used to sell a product on-line, for example?

Thanks.



Seventh -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/26/2002 17:12:18)

Their sister site is a classified ad site. I write articles on real estate and cars, as well as general stuff like City Politics and Local Entertainment.

Here' s an example:
Let' s say Sue is looking to buy a house. This being her first life altering purchase she' s wondering what to look for in a place she just might spend the rest of her life in. Low and behold, there' s a link to an article called Buying A New House? Don' t Make The Same Mistakes I Did!

It sparks her interest and she clicks on the link. She finds it eye opening and follows the link back to the original page. She browses through the Homes For Sale classifieds and finds a couple she is interested in. Now she' s wondering how to see the ones that sparked interest. Low and behold, there' s another link that says Want To See These Homes? Click Here! Here' s where the ' royalties' part comes in.

If she clicks on that link, I get paid a % of the classified ads site Advertising Fee to the company that purchased that ad space. That' s the agreement. Though it is a very small percentage. If you multiply that by the fact that they get a massive amount of traffic per month you make a nice bit of pocket money.

BTW, the way it is tracked is when she clicks on the link to read my article and then clicks on the link to return to the page she came from, the page defaults to an id type setup. It' s kinda like logging into msn.net where everywhere you go under their network of sites it tracks you.

Hope that clears things up a bit. Oh, and I don' t get anything for a sale. Just the possibility of one. I guess it is kind of like giving a referral in a way.



Helene -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/26/2002 17:52:16)

Another big Thank You to you. You' ve got the residual income thing covered. That is something my subconscious has been aspiring to for some time now. Your concrete example may just give me the impetus to go for it. I am tired of building other peoples castles and not even feathering my own nest.

I am also, BTW, in contract negotiations with another client for commission based on shopping cart sales. I get my regular hourly wage for cart set up and then my promo work will be paid on a commission basis. (I' ll be paid commission on all internet sales, retail+wholesale, regardless of how the customer got to the site.) So far I' m happy with the negotiations to date, but any input anyone might have on this sort of an arrangement would be greatly appreciated. One point of discussion, for example, is how long I would continue to receive the commission if the client should decide to drop me as web promoter (not likely to happen, but you never know . . . )

We developers need to take care of our own don' t we?. . . I don' t see anyone else looking out for us.



Seventh -> RE: writing web content rip-off? (9/27/2002 4:04:10)

quote:

One point of discussion, for example, is how long I would continue to receive the commission if the client should decide to drop me as web promoter (not likely to happen, but you never know . . . )

It' s all about the contract. In the example above I get that regardless of my association with the weekly.

After being burned for more money than I care to mention, I now rely solely on well-crafted contracts. If they' re scared off, no problem. I either provide them with a simplified version (usually the first thing), request they have an attorney look it over, or I move on. I do this for me and my family to ' secure' our financial future. And I put nothing above that. I can always find another client.

BTW, ignorance is bliss. Ever met Bliss? I have. He' s no longer my friend.



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