ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (Full Version)

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hhammash -> ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/5/2002 15:15:05)

Hi all,

ASP and ASP.Net:

1- What is the difference?
2- Does ASP.Net use the same scripting language as ASP?
3- Which is better?

Best regards
Hisham



bobby -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 15:38:50)

1. ASP.NET is the new " version" of ASP. There will be no further updates or ammendments to " Classic" ASP

2. No

3. opinions vary... but ASP.NET is deffinitely the future...

Check out the ASP.NET article at W3Schools - it' s very basic, but gives you an idea.

Then check out asp.net (especially The Web Matrix [;)])

I' m pretty excited about it... though I' m barely starting to feel comfortable with " Classic" ASP - the thought of learning another version is a bit unsettling.




ou812 -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 16:16:31)

Thanks for posting the links.

Very interesting, and nice. Big difference visually is the structure. Looks nothing like classic ASP. Will be nice if I can use " C" too.

And, I would agree with you - better or not, it will be the future. Guess I will have to make myself try it out. Downloaded the webmatrix and the .net framework. Just need to get motivated and do something with them!

Anyone else around here try this out yet?



J-man -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 16:24:55)

i like the link above, especially this link off that one
http://www.w3schools.com/downloadwww.htm
[:)]



bobby -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 16:28:55)

It supports C#

I' m in the same boat. I DL' d the Matrix + the SDK - still haven' t touched it.

Read through the 72 page .pdf bood from Wrox press (Free download) Great stuff, but without knowing more about the code structure I was a bit lost.

The scalability is impressive. I like the overall stucture... seems complicated at first but in the long run it appears to save loads of time with far less redundant code.

I keep surfing for a copy of ASP.NET Unleashed for under $30... soon I' ll break down and buy it. Then I' m really going to be in trouble.

[&:]

J-Man - that' s a good one!



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 17:24:34)

Hi,

I read the article in w3schools quickly.

It mentioned that ASP.Net support Visual Basic fully. Not VBScript.

Does it mean it is exactly the Visual Basic we use in Visual Basic 5.0 and 6.0?

Regards
Hisham



bobby -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 17:45:48)

It' s actually VB.NET [&:]

You can still run Classic ASP in an ASP.NET environment, but the two aren' t interchangeable...



ASPPlayground -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 19:14:30)

my 3-cent worth:

1. They are very different. you don' t need to know ASP to work with ASP.NET. In ASP, the codes are mostly procedural, and in ASP.NET, you have to think about " class" . In terms of performance, it all depends on how you code, not which tool you use. There are a lot more to learn about ASP.NET, e.g. page cycle, web form' s postback architecture, data binding, Error Trapping, code behind, XML based application configuration, Server Controls, and User Controls.

You will have to forget about almost everything you learned with ASP, unless you want to code your ASP.NET in ASP fashion (it is doable). My advice to you is that you forget about what you learned, and start with an open mind.

ASP.NET supports about 90% of the ASP object model (response, request, etc.) with a lot more properties and methods for each object model.

2. ASP.NET supports all CLR compliant languages. With the base installation of the SDK, it supports C#, VB.NET, JScript.NET, and MC++. Personally I prefer VB.NET because I will never use pointer for web application. When all languages are compiled to down to IL, it doesn' t really make any sense to discuss " which language is better" .

Also, VB.NET is very different from VB, just like ADO.NET is very different from ADOc.

3. ASP.NET is better. It is at least 10 times better. It is harder to learn in my opinion, but once you get over the steeper learning curve, you will never go back to use ASP.



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/5/2002 19:53:40)

Thank you ASPPlayground ,

Your reply describes the issue clearly.

Now, are we expecting Microsoft Office.Net too?[:j]

Regards
Hisham



c1sissy -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/6/2002 8:42:35)

Aspplayground:

I' m learning classic asp. Now I have no programing experience, but am teaching myself how to do this.

If asp.net is harder to learn, will it be a bit easier after tackling the classic asp? Just curious here.

I have the web matrix, lol and I printed out their whole tutorial before I realilzed how long it really was!

I don' t want to learn the two together though, which I was going to attempt. However I figured that one at a time would be a bit better. I' m using the Sams teach yourself in 21 days. But... I did get my first asp page up! So progress will be made a step at a time.



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/6/2002 17:20:20)


quote:

ORIGINAL: c1sissy
If asp.net is harder to learn, will it be a bit easier after tackling the classic asp? Just curious here.

No, I don' t really think so. See, ASP can' t do anything useful without connecting to database first (this is what server-side programming is all about - data driven web page). Therefore, when you learn ASP, you have to learn the ADO model. You will definitely have to memorize a few common ADO techniques to become proficient as an ASP programmer. For example, a few of the recordset object' s methods are used everywhere -> the GetRows method, the MoveNext method, etc. Without the two methods I mentioned here, there is no ASP page.

And now, Microsoft has decided to abandon their well known, widely used ADO, and replace it with ADO.NET. In ASP.NET/ADO.NET, everything is about disconnected data, everything is about databinding, and everything is about event-driven programming (and none of the three here are available in ASP/ADO). If you still think you can build a table with the MoveNext method or populate a drop down list with the GetRows method, think again. FYI, there is no recordset object in ADO.NET (not even a .NET equivalent), and there is no movenext nor getrows.

As a conclusion, you will be wasting your time familiarizing yourself with the ADO object model if you want to move to ASP.NET very soon. All the " GOOD" database techniques you learn with ADO are considered " BAD" in ADO.NET. If you want to compare ASP/ASP.NET without any of the db thing I mentioned here, chances are you will be very frustrated as well (at least, I was). Pure ASP.NET is " event-driven" (somewhat like the DOM), not procedural (like ASP).

My suggestion to you is go ahead and learn ASP.NET:

Learn the Page Cycle and Web controls first (they are just like the DOM in my opinion with a few extra tags, like <asp:button>). Do learn viewstate and the postback architecture.

Don' t bother with all those Rich Controls first. They all look good, but you just can' t learn everything at once. Just don' t bother with them - don' t even look at what they can do.

Forget about " looking for a .NET equivalent technique to classic ASP" .

Try to learn DataBinding with the DataReader object. You will want to review many of the data aware web controls at this stage, partucularly the three list controls.

Don' t bother with DataSet (DataAdapter, DataView, DataRow, DataColumn) first. They are just too different from the datareader which may confuse you.

Write some simple pages displaying records from the Northwind db (using pure .NET with databinding and the datareader object).

Learn Code Behind and User Controls. Forget about " includes" .

Go back to write those pages again with Code Behind and User Controls, and then always stick with these two techniques.

If you just can' t understand why those " protected members" are there (as in code behind), I will suggest that you go look for some reference on " how to write .NET class" . This is an essential part of ASP.NET programming, which you won' t learn from ASP programming.

And the list goes on.

It is hard to become very proficient in ASP.NET like the way you did in ASP. It is very difficult, and there are many more things to memorize than with the classic ASP.

I hope this can help everyone a bit[:)]



c1sissy -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/6/2002 18:06:28)

Wow, what a mind full!! Much to learn.

Right now I have the asp3.0 book. Have been trying to convince hubbie to get me the next books that start the asp.net. Any recomendations would be good beings as I am self teaching this.

I do have the matrix, and I have the tutorial printed out that is on their site. I just thought that knowing both would be good. But then, I dont' know much about either one yet. I' m bookmarking this page with your letter becuase I know that it will be extremely benneficial to me. I would like to thank you for your imput and I knwo that others who read this will find it as interesting, and informative as I have.



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/6/2002 22:36:47)

Thanks c1sissy for your comment.

I would like to add a few things here:

1. Do not try to learn JS.NET if you haven' t already known it. It looks like Javascript, but again, it is a whole new language that, in my opinion, is the worst in the three new .NET languages. Also, don' t bother with MC++, because it is again, confusing and is just not C++. C++ programmer should definitely look into C#, and VB/VBS/VBA programmers should look into VB.NET.

2. When dealing with strings in .NET, don' t forget about the StringBuilder Class. This is the name you want to always keep in mind. StringBuilder is the only efficient way to work with String in .NET. Take a look at this page:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpref/html/frlrfsystemtextstringbuildermemberstopic.asp

3. Learn Regular Expressions now. Validation controls in web forms can validate user inputs based on the Regular Expressions you specified for that control. It is very powerful, efficient, and can REALLY save you a lot of time. This is also the technique you want to remember.

Last but not the least, I want to clarify one thing:

There are many books, tutorials, or rumors out there stating that using ASP.NET can really save you from writing a lot of codes. This is untrue, very wrong indeed. They want you to believe that coding ASP.NET is " easier" than doing so in ASP, and they always love to use the " DataBinding examples" as proof. Don' t let them fool you. Don' t ever think " hey, this is really easier than ASP!" Based on my own experience, the only time that ASP.NET really excels in " saving you from writing a lot of codes" is when you use the Validating Controls with Regular Expressions.

So, two more things to know:

  • StringBuilder
  • Regular Expressions



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 0:04:12)

Hi Aspplayground,

Do you think we will get a new version of Frontpage which will deal with ASP.Net and PHP, or ASP.Net alone at least.

Have you heared or read somewhere that a New Microsoft office is coming out?

Regards
Hisham



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 0:57:18)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hhammash

Do you think we will get a new version of Frontpage which will deal with ASP.Net and PHP, or ASP.Net alone at least.

Have you heared or read somewhere that a New Microsoft office is coming out?


Hi hhammash,

1. I think so. Microsoft will definitely introduce a new abstraction model for frontpage users to use ASP.NET, just like the old DRW. HOWEVER, if you want a program that deals with PHP + ASP.NET + ASP + JSP + ColdFusion now, you can get Dreamweaver MX. In my opinion (I know this will offend some of the frontpage users here, so please accept my apology), there is really no point to learn any abstraction model. ASP.NET' s " web controls" is already an abstraction model that outputs pure HTML.

If you want a visual editor that works well with ASP.NET, please consider VS.NET. I own a copy myself (the professional version, about 1000 USD) and it works well for me. I know nothing about the web matrix editor, so I can' t comment on that program. Using VS.NET is the only way you can save a lot of hand coding, and at the same time, produce efficient codes. i think you can also get a version that is cheaper and supports only the language of your choice. Please check out the VS.NET site at Microsoft.com.

2. Office.NET - I don' t know. I am using Office XP now, and since I am not using frontpage for programming, I probably won' t upgrade to office.NET in the future. I kind of regret that I upgraded my software from Office 2k - XP => I just can' t see any benefits from my perspective.



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 5:03:31)

Thank Aspplayground,

I have Dreamweaver MX, It is actually very powerful, specially after adding the options of working with ASP and PHP.

Which application in Visual Studio.net you can develop databases without coding a lot?

Regards
Hisham



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 6:34:22)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hhammash

Which application in Visual Studio.net you can develop databases without coding a lot?


The designer mode. You can drag and drop controls and do databinding without touching the HTML mode. Intellisense also helps. You can also browse the db inside VS.NET (although I never use it -> I use EM/QA for this purpose)

Code behind works great as well. VS.NET will keep tracking the changes you make to both your web form and the associated code behind file. This is kind of powerful in my opinion.

So you do own a copy of VS.NET? if so, why are you using Dreamweaver MX? Is it really THAT good to code ASP.NET/ASP? (I never use it, but my girl friend has a copy of that and she designed the web pages for me)



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 6:50:58)

Hi Aspplayground,

I have both VS.Net and Marcomedia MX suite, I have not used any seriously, this why I am asking to see which one is better.

Thank you for you reply.

Regards
Hisham



c1sissy -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 9:45:17)

aspplayground.
i know that you are goin to think this foolish, however, I' m going to continue with the classic asp.

Once I learn this, then I' ll learn the asp.net.

Keep the information on the .net coming. I have this section bookmarked and will keep reading, look at the link, and do some research on it. I have spent much time and energy on the asp, finding a way to test the pages, (I have xp home edition, not eligible for any of the IIS/pws that are out there) About 2 months worth of questions in different forums and in here.

ahh, I can feel the shaking of your head, and feel the vast amount of thoughts that will arrive from this statement. I have thought about this and even prayed about it. My gut feeling tells me that for now stay with this one. I have the matrix installed, and I think I previously stated that I have the tutorial printed from it. So while learning classic asp, I' ll dabble a bit with this.

C#, VB, VBS,VBA-are these things that I want to research and bookmark for learning? Right now I' m searching VBScript to learn this.

I have one question for you. Component Services? I have this on my computer. Com+applications,DCOM Config,Distributed TransactionCorrdinator, and finally Running processes. If you could explain this to me I' d sincerely appreciate it. Is this related to asp/asp.net in any way?

I' m still eager to learn what you have to teach here in outfront. I value your intelligence and wealth of knowledge. I appreciate your guidance as well. I have a desire to learn that unfortunatly is larger than my capacity to retain. So i have to work really hard to learn things. But I think that I vaule what I do learn a bit more because of this, and because I have to work a bit harder at it.



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 14:27:09)

Hi all,

I have three questions here:

1- I have started studying ASP 3.0 since 1 month, I have purchased books for it. Do you think that I am wasting my time or I can go on. I feel comfortable with it.

2- What is the philosophy of Microsoft in changing everything. VB is different from VB.Net, ASP is different from ASP.Net ...etc. People are taking this against Miscrosoft. They say that you spend years in trying to master a language, and then suddenly, a new version of it comes out, but with everything new. In Oracle for instance, you keep your experience from the first version to the latest. You keep what you have learnt but you need to learn the new features only.

3- For how many years to come do you think ASP will survive?

Thanks a lot for all your input.

Best regards
Hisham



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 16:04:44)

To c1sissy:

There is nothing wrong to continue to learn VBScript/ASP (this is what I referred to as VBS) for 2 reasons:

1) I don' t quite think that many will move to ASP.NET soon (or the .NET framework) either. ASP will survive, just like Perl/CGI. It is just that I thought you haven' t had learned much about the two so I suggested that you should go ahead and learn the new stuff.

2) There won' t be too many things that you can ONLY do with ASP.NET.

So no, I am not shaking my head at all[:)]

About component service: Yes, it definitely has something to do with ASP/ASP.NET. But you don' t need to worry to much about it unless you are " writing" component. This topic falls into the " ADVANCED" category, and the underlying theory is just a bit too much for a new programmer like you (nothing offensive). Just remember that it doesn' t mean too much for a pure ASP programmer (you don' t have to understand it to use any 3rd-party component in your application).

C#, VB, VBS,VBA -> They are programming languages. Pick one and forget about the rest. In your situation, concentrate on VBS(cript), and when you are ready to learn ASP.NET, use VB.NET (a new CLR compliant language). C# is the core language of the .NET framework. VB is Visual Basic (up to version 6). VBA is for programming with Microsoft Office (VB for Application).

I am relatively new to this forum so my suggestions are based on my experience, not your experience (I didn' t know many of you until now). If any of my suggestion here offends, or discourages anyone, please accept my apology.

I have two more things to say:

1) There is one thing that is completely independent of any programming environment (ASP/ASP.NET/PHP/JSP etc.) => the SQL language. Try not to rely on ADO' s method, e.g. recordset' s AddNew, update, filter, etc., when you are dealing with databases. Try working with SQL directly. Once you are comfortable with the basic SQL statements, try stored procedure (with ADOs' s COMMAND object).

2) Try writing some " CLASS" while you learn ASP. It will greatly help your transition to ASP.NET in the future.



ASPPlayground -> RE: RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 16:45:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hhammash
1- I have started studying ASP 3.0 since 1 month, I have purchased books for it. Do you think that I am wasting my time or I can go on. I feel comfortable with it.


No, you are not wasting your time. Just remember that you will have to forget about many things you learned with ASP when you are moving to ASP.NET

quote:

2- What is the philosophy of Microsoft in changing everything. VB is different from VB.Net, ASP is different from ASP.Net ...etc. People are taking this against Miscrosoft. They say that you spend years in trying to master a language, and then suddenly, a new version of it comes out, but with everything new. In Oracle for instance, you keep your experience from the first version to the latest. You keep what you have learnt but you need to learn the new features only.

I can' t speak for Microsoft - no comment on this
quote:

3- For how many years to come do you think ASP will survive?

at least 1-2 more years after .NET server is released I guess.



Doug G -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 17:52:17)

quote:

quote:

3- For how many years to come do you think ASP will survive?
at least 1-2 more years after .NET server is released I guess.


A lot longer than that I believe. There is a huge base of installed asp that won' t move to .NET right away.

There are still COBOL programmers at work :)



c1sissy -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/7/2002 19:41:52)

quote:

So no, I am not shaking my head at all

I' m relieved that you aren' t! [;)]
quote:

" ADVANCED" category, and the underlying theory is just a bit too much for a new programmer like you (nothing offensive).

No offense taken. I' m here to learn.
quote:

(I didn' t know many of you until now).

Very pleased to meet you![:)][:)]

I appreciate the input that you are contributing here. Being new to all of this I have had many questions. I' m happy that my gut feeling wasn' t something to cause you to [:j] shake your head!

quote:

I am relatively new to this forum so my suggestions are based on my experience,
If I had experience, I wouldn' t be in here asking and learning!

I appreciate the people who do have experience that are willing to come into forums to share what they know. They are valueable people.(espically to people like me who are teaching themselves!,without prior knowledge of many things.)

The " CLASS" will this be part of what I' ll be coming across during my learning? Or is this something that I should research online to find some greeat tutorials taht will help.

Once again, thanks for the input.lol, I have just learned about output. [:D][:D]



ASPPlayground -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (10/9/2002 16:14:09)


quote:

ORIGINAL: c1sissy

The " CLASS" will this be part of what I' ll be coming across during my learning? Or is this something that I should research online to find some greeat tutorials taht will help.


" Class" is the template of an object. And a component is usually made up with several " Classes" . The recordset object you instantiate is made up with several classes (I believe).

Let me show you a very simple and useful class I wrote for this forum application: 

Class StringBuilder
	
	Private stringArray()
	Private perIncrement
	Private NoItems
	
	Private Sub Class_Initialize()
		perIncrement = 100 : NoItems = 0
		ReDim stringArray(perIncrement)
	End Sub
	
	Public Sub Append(ByVal strValue)
		Dim ub : ub = UBound(stringArray)
		strValue = strValue & " " 
		If NoItems > ub Then ReDim Preserve stringArray(ub + perIncrement)
		stringArray(NoItems) = strValue : NoItems = NoItems + 1
	End Sub
	
	Public Sub Reset
		Erase stringArray
		Class_Initialize
	End Sub
	
  	Public Property Get Value
   		Value = Join(stringArray," " )
   	End Property 
	
End Class


And to use this class in your own asp code, use this: 

Dim anObject, i 
Set anObject = New Stringbuilder
 for i = 0 to 100
     anObject.append(" this is string" & i & " <br>" &vbcrlf)
 next

response.write (anObject.Value)
anObject.reset
Set anObject = nothing


As you can see, putting things together as a Class can save you a lot coding. Once it is done, it can be used several times through out your program.



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/10/2002 1:54:49)

Hi,

I found this article on ASP.Net, it is good.

Please read if you are interested in learning more on ASP.Net


http://www.aspng.com/freebook/learn/overview.aspx

Regards
Hisham



c1sissy -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/10/2002 7:20:38)

Hisham:
thanks for the link, I know that i' ll be checking it out, and apprciate you posting it in here.

aspplayground:
Ok, I see the two writes that you did. by condensing it like you did, that is the class (?) Also, is that a short cut? Or is this something different from that.



hhammash -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/10/2002 10:47:01)

Hi,

Thanks c1sissy.

This post thanks to all of you became a little reference on ASP and ASP.Net.

I am getting emails from persons who read it and are happy with it.

Thanks to you all.

Hisham



ASPPlayground -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/12/2002 23:44:02)

quote:

Ok, I see the two writes that you did. by condensing it like you did, that is the class (?) Also, is that a short cut? Or is this something different from that.


I am not sure I know what you meant. The code I provided above is a " class" , but that is not " the definition of a class" . It is what a script class looks like.



Seventh -> RE: ASP & ASP.Net (a good link added) (10/13/2002 0:53:17)

ASPPlayground,

You just saved me $300 or more bucks! I think I' ll check into the .NET and go from there. I can always backtrack. I hope.



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