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puiwaihin
Posts: 1378
From: Taiwan
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/15/2002 19:35:04
There is such a thing as copyright protection for designs, though it is hard to enforce and I don' t know if there has ever been a case brought up considering it.
However, similar and the same are two different things. (Ok, that' s a weird sentence.) General design elements are public domain. Having rollover buttons, or a certain effect, etc. are not copyrighted. What is covered under copyright is how it all fits together to create a " total" design. How far you have to go to make your design original rather than a copy is subject to debate. I don' t think just changing the colors a little is sufficient if the whole design is unique.
Don' t feel guilty about taking pieces from here and pieces from there, but don' t take all of someone' s code and just copy it. I' d suggest writing the webmaster and letting them know what a great job they did and that you want to mimic (not exaclty duplicate) their effects. They may just be so flattered they will outright grant permission to copy their code for tweaking.
In any event, that would be proper etiqutte.
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Doug G
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/15/2002 22:57:54
I suspect you' ll know when you are doing wrong and when you' re not. Drawing the line is an ethical choice everyone has to make.
If you take images or copy content directly from another site, that would be wrong in my book. If you like a design and work your own out with that design in your mind, it probably is OK. Look at Apple vs. Windows. Apple sued MS over the similarities between the Apple GUI and the Windows GUI, but MS won that lawsuit.
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/15/2002 23:06:20
I just want to add a couple of points.
As a website designer, I think you should simply be inspired by my design. If you need to...for lack of a better word...steal my hard work, then you are a thief. Nothing more, nothing less.
However, if you contact me and would like to use it I would more than likely give it to you for a very cheap price as long as a link comes back to me as such:
Design by ' seventh' .
If you do not want to link back, it would cost you the same price as if I designed it for a client. Not the best choice, unless I' m doing the design.
Taking bits and pieces are more than fine. I' ve seen my buttons and simple graphics everywhere, with modifications here and there. But if I see my whole design anywhere, I will politely ask them to remove it. If they refuse, my lawyer will be on his job.
So, to answer your question, is it good website etiquette to copy someone' s work? No. It' s a copyright infringement and punishable by law.
Is it good website etiquette to be inspired by someone' s work? Yes! That' s (hopefully) why they did it. But use it as a guide to create your own masterpiece. Do that and you won' t have to worry about Mikey, my Pit-Lawyer.
Sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I' m very big on protecting my work. For example, see the big guy to the left. An artist did that. I saw his work at 3D-Art.com(?). I wanted to use it as my little avatar. I sent him an email explaining what I wanted to do with it and where it would be shown and he simply said fine. ' It' s good to know somebody likes what I do.' 
< Message edited by seventh -- 10/14/2002 11:10:05 PM >
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moose
Posts: 200
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From: Plumpton NSW Australia
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/16/2002 22:06:41
I am inclined to agree wholeheartedly with Seventh. It is not harsh at all to want to protect what you create (and it doesn' t hurt to ask if you want to use what someone else has created as puiwaihin says).
I have been there in the past - where somone stole my code (and had the gall to leave the scripts in it linked to our servers) - and things got really ugly, and lawyers were nearly called in to do nasty things. Had the designer who ripped off my code asked - I' d have probably let him use it for a link back - or had sold him the code outright for a small fee if you didn' t want to link back. Instead it was really ugly, and all it did was make him look bad in front of his new client, and make me look nasty.
That said, use sites as an inspiration - not as an easy out for not doing the hard yards to create a design - and you should never have any problems. 99 per cent of web designers are flattered if you are inspired by their work, particularly if you tell them you like it etc.
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http://www.wildpurple.com.au
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Doug G
Posts: 1189
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: SoCal
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/16/2002 23:25:03
quote:
I have been there in the past - where somone stole my code (and had the gall to leave the scripts in it linked to our servers) -
Yeah, that could be considered " over the line" [:p]
Blatant copying of text, images, script or other page elements is wrong. Liking the way a site works and doing similar isn' t necessarily wrong, or else the first person that came up with lefthand menus would be the only person allowed to use them.
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
Joined: 8/4/2002
From: The Motor City
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/17/2002 2:18:12
quote:
Liking the way a site works and doing similar isn' t necessarily wrong, or else the first person that came up with lefthand menus would be the only person allowed to use them.
But if the functional ' code' of that lefthand menu is copyrighted, to jail you go.
Here' s something you should check out. It' s cheaper than having my lawyer explain it to you.
Very Good Legal Start For Web Designers!
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Doug G
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/17/2002 8:33:18
Nice link, thanks.
quote:
But if the functional ' code' of that lefthand menu is copyrighted, to jail you go.
Who said anything about copying code?
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preludeok95
Posts: 1469
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From: Tulsa OK USA
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/17/2002 14:16:07
Great link, seventh.
Some good examples here:
http://www.pirated-sites.com/archive/
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ou812
Posts: 1602
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From: San Diego
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/17/2002 20:03:00
Great site Seventh! Thanks.
Amazing, preludeok95! I can' t believe how many there are!
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puiwaihin
Posts: 1378
From: Taiwan
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/17/2002 23:49:25
It really depends on just how similar you' re talking about. Certain things are really public domain. If it' s something so general as having navigation at the top for your main division and having a left hand menu that expands and contracts, that would all be public. Just don' t use the exact same colors as they do and don' t copy their code and you' ll be in the clear.
Elements of a design are not necessarily copyrighted. Having buttons that depress when pushed for example would not be (though the actual graphic most likely would). The more elements of the design you copy, though, the closer you come to copyright infringement.
Another thing you can do to check and see if you are violating copyright is to look and see whether or not there are other sites out there that have those sorts of elements.
Sorry to hear you got such a bad reaction. Good luck in designing your site.
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EWD
Posts: 1052
From: BeauFlow, NY
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 1:02:05
Serendipity - You have to follow your own conscience. If you' re not copying code, images or content, then I believe you' re OK. No one lives in a vacuum so everything you do, see and hear is potential inspiration for something else, whether you realize it or not. It' s always happened that one new thing leads to a slew of similar things. Call it a fad or fashion or progress. Without it nothing would ever change. Build on it. Sounds like you could use it for inspiration and I' m sure you can make it better - rude people are never the best there is!
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
Joined: 8/4/2002
From: The Motor City
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 3:19:30
Serendipity,
As a businessman, I would have gladly acknowledged that you liked my site and wanted to ' steal' it. I also would have politely warned you of certain copyright limitations to copying the site such as content, code, etc. And then I would have made a silly joke about hoping you were not my competition.
As a graphic designer, I would have loved for someone to comment on my skills as a graphic designer. ' Real artists' love acknowledgement. I send comments to the web/graphic designer of certain sites that I think are incredibly designed. I have yet to receive a rude note back. I also would have told you to use it as inspiration to create your own site. It' s not really yours if you use someone else' s hard work for yourself without giving due credit.
By the way, why don' t you send me the url of the site you' re talking about. I would love to look at it.
As far as the rude spungeon, it could have gone either way. Think of it as a telemarketer trying to sell you your house. That would seem a little fishy, wouldn' t it? He/she probably felt the same way.
In the future, I would not send an email of the nature. You may have just raised his level of awareness and he may go searching for your site just out of spite. How would he find you? You did send an email didn' t ya?
Either way, if you send me the url I could offer you some free advice on how to make it yours without the worry of a future lawsuit.
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preludeok95
Posts: 1469
Joined: 12/4/2001
From: Tulsa OK USA
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 6:11:23
Suffice to say...imitation isn' t always seen as the sincerest form of flattery.
Which now makes <me> wonder about templates. Maybe I' ve missed some discussion on this but what the heck, Search is on the fritz, and I' m in the mood.
Say Serendipity and I both took a liking to, for example, the " Something Blue" template up there in the top left corner for customers in similar businesses.
Thomas sells it to both of us for an incredibly LOW price (while Spooky is of course busy minding the forums) and tweaking the Search). We both make modifications for our customer, publish, collect an enormously LARGE fee, and head off on a cruise (separate oceans, of course).
Thomas is happy, my customer is happy, Serendipity' s customer is happy..
We' re enjoying boat drinks under a full moon when they happen across each other' s sites and immediately cancel the balance due to cover legal fees as they go after anyone and everyone.
Who owns what when you use templates?
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 7:48:23
In the case of a template waht you buy is the right to use the design, rather than any rights to the design itself. Similarly that is what you sell to your client. It is really important that clients are aware of this. I would say the issue is not if a client comes accross the template elsewhere and more like when. If the client is then under the impression that they have bought rights to an original design created for them, they have a reason for being annoyed.
Generally speaking the fact that a template is used will significantly reduce both the time taken to create the site and the price charged to the client. Most clients will appreciate that this is the case.
I have used templates a few times to create client sites. On each occasion it was an option offered to people who were balking at the time and/or price quoted to them and allowed me to significantly reduce both quote and development time. They were aware that the reduced price came along with the liklihood that they or their users would see the design elsewhere, but this didn' t bother them. There are people for whom this is an important issue and those people accept that a higher price will be payable for exclusive rights to a design. They accept it more easily actually if an alternative is presented.
I also never display these sites in my portfolio, on the basis that it is a showcase of my design ability, not that of a template creator or creators. If I did I would feel that a notice should accompany it saying something like " Costs were kept to a minimum on this project by buying the rights to use a template rather than developing a design from scratch"
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:: InKK Design :: InKK Domains
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
Joined: 8/4/2002
From: The Motor City
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 9:47:34
So far, no one I have designed for has requested the use of a template simply for that reason - they want to be different. But I do state to them that it is an option and it would lower the overall cost; but they would not own the design. That bothered a lot of my clients.
One thing I have not done is use other individuals templates. I create my own during the transitions between projects. It keeps me active and I have discovered a lot of differences in my Graphics Programs by doing so. It' s not only a creative outlet, but an informational one as well.
Abbeyvet,
Just curious. Out of all of the clients you have designed for, approximately how many chose the templates?
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 10:58:49
quote:
Just curious. Out of all of the clients you have designed for, approximately how many chose the templates?
I can tell you exactly - not approximately. 2.
Out of dozens and dozens of people. Actually I hope I did not give the impression that they were what people generally went for. On several occasions where people were concerned about cost I offered it as an option but most say no when they realise the design will not be uniquely theirs.
In each of the above case I was really busy at the time and kinda steered people who I knew were going to be quite demanding in wanting a lot for a little towards templates. It meant that I really could just get the sites done in no time flat and get them off my desk. It was really convenient.
Those ones were purchased templates. I to though make up fuly ready to roll pages when its quiet, but I usually keep them for presenting as design options at the initial phase of a new project. Soe of those layouts are like poor lost souls, rejected several times till at last they find a good home!
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 10/17/2002 4:02:23 PM >
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preludeok95
Posts: 1469
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 12:26:49
Sorry for the turn of the thread, Katherine and Seventh...
This is one of those topics that embraces a wealth of issues, and Serendipity presented a good opportunity to hit on some really good ones.
I visit lots of " theme parks" and template sites for looksies. Have used one theme, seriously modified a template, and done some creative play
When I looked at some of the " pirated" sites, it looked like several were template based, that' s what raised the question in my mind.
THANKS!!!! Great discussion!
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
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RE: Website ettiquette... - 10/18/2002 20:19:24
I, too, noticed that. And a lot of them were templates. I saw 13 of them that were offered on TemplateMonster. I even sent a message to ' the pirate' that he may want to alter some of those to reflect that. What most people forget, or simply just don' t know, is that a template can be used by anyone.
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