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Microsoft MVP

 

Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?!

 
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All Forums >> Web Development >> Search Engine Optimization and Web Business >> Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?!
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_gail

 

Posts: 2876
From: So FL
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Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 10/17/2002 15:05:50   
This is ultimately a legal question but I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experiences with copyright info on web pages and in meta tags.

Like others, a portion of my web design work is done as a volunteer. In one particular instance I' ve put in more hours than I care to mention, create original graphics, logos and copy such as FAQs and tutorials, and a whole lot more.

In my particular case, I originally said the organization could use a three page website I created four years ago. I never said they could " have" it. In fact, I even picked the name for the newsletter which is the same name now used for the website. The site has now grown to over 70 pages, with more than 1200 internal and external links, over 500 graphics, etc. I have my copyright information in the meta tags of all appropriate pages, and on some photo composites. Needless to say no one, including myself, ever dreamed the site would grow or be utilized to this extent it has.

When all is said and done, who owns all the original artwork and text? The organization or the volunteer who copyrights it? Any thoughts?

gail
Doug G

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 10/18/2002 0:34:58   
With artistic work, generally the creator automatically owns the copyright when the work is placed on some permanent media, unless there is a " work for hire" agreement in place. I don' t know about volunteer work.

Here is a place to start for US copyright information.

http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html#noc


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Doug G
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(in reply to _gail)
Seventh

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 10/18/2002 10:06:46   
quote:

In my particular case, I originally said the organization could use a three page website I created four years ago. I never said they could " have" it. In fact, I even picked the name for the newsletter which is the same name now used for the website. The site has now grown to over 70 pages, with more than 1200 internal and external links, over 500 graphics, etc. I have my copyright information in the meta tags of all appropriate pages, and on some photo composites. Needless to say no one, including myself, ever dreamed the site would grow or be utilized to this extent it has.

When all is said and done, who owns all the original artwork and text? The organization or the volunteer who copyrights it? Any thoughts?

The simple answer - regardless of whether you do the work for free or not, it is simply just good business to have a contract stating exactly what you will and will not do. In this case, just because you put your info in the meta tags and on the bottom of the page really does not carry much weight. It' s actually suppose to inform someone that ' these statements are on this site because I have a contract that can back them up!'

Anyone can put that information on a page. You. Someone who maintains the site. My dog (he really is smart though, in a silly stupid kinda way). The point is, unknowingly, you may have given up all rights to what you have created.

Just my thoughts and experience. And from my experience, I will not do anything for anyone without a contract. Paid or free.

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"go forth and create."

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_gail

 

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From: So FL
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 10/19/2002 10:05:37   
Doug G,

Thank you for the link. I tend to agree with your take on " artistic work."


Seventh,

Your point about a contract is well-taken. Since many people in these forums have mentioned doing volunteer work, I believe your suggestion is very valuable. Of course, four years ago no one ever anticipated the growth and scope of the particular site I mentioned.

I' ve just begun taking the " Introduction to Copyright Law" at Virtual University and will share anything pertinent when I complete the course. In the meantime, I' d still like to hear others thoughts on the subject.

gail

(in reply to Seventh)
xeerex

 

Posts: 77
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From: Texas
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/17/2002 0:56:25   
Hello all,

I have read this message forum for some time now as I am a FP freak:). There is some absolutely excellent information here, and the board members are more than willing to help!

I have just spent some time researching some of the issues invovling copyright for a client' s website. Here is what I learned after researching the US Copyright Act of 1976 AND the Right to Publicity laws of various states.

In a nutshell, when you create an original work of art or design then you automatically own the copyright immediately and even after your death. That is unless you assign rights to another individual of course. You do not have to even put a copyright notice on it legally, although to pursue legal recourse you technically must register the copyrighted material with the US Copyright Office.

Photographs are a different story, specifically photos of persons. Here is an email excerpt to a person that initiated my research into this:
quote:

" ...the photograph belongs to the photographer first and foremost." This is only partially true. While U.S. Copyright law does allow that ownership of a photograph or image is initially owned by the photographer, there are several instances where the photographer does not own the rights. For instance, have you ever heard of the Right of Publicity? The Right of Publicity prevents the unauthorized commercial use of an individual' s name, likeness, or other recognizable aspects of one' s persona without exclusive license or permission of the individual. It gives an individual the exclusive right to license the use of their identity for commercial promotion. While it is largely controlled by State not Federal law, it allows protection to the subject of the photograph. Although the Civil Rights laws on the Right to Privacy do vary somewhat from state to state, they generally prohibit the use of a living person' s name, portrait or picture for " advertising" or " trade" purposes without prior written consent, and provide criminal penalties and a private right of action for damages and injunctive relief. In this issue you have raised, it is the racers who actually have the Right to Privacy in the sense that their images and likenesses cannot be used for trade without license.

Rather than using a silly stolen car analogy, let me give you a more realistic one. A photographer takes a picture of a famous person and uses that image in a public commercial manner such as a magazine or online publication. If the photographer does not obtain license to use the subject in the photograph, the photographer is in violation of the subject' s Right to Privacy. Now, it is up to the subject to seek damages or injunctions through the courts.


In the case of meta tags, I don' t think you could really copyright them as there are so many general words that are used unless you created specific phrases for the client. In that case those could also be construed as trademarks such as a slogan.

If orginal works of art were created for the logos, then technically you still own the copyright to those. However, since you volunteered your time and services to the client, then I am not sure what recourse you would really have especially without a binding agreement on the license of copyrights.

I am no legal counsel but did spend some time on this subject and thought I' d add my 2 cents.

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Webmaster in Perpetual Training
Xeerex The Wizard
aka Rex Moncrief

Web Design / Web Hosting / Graphics / eCommerce

(in reply to _gail)
Seventh

 

Posts: 1235
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From: The Motor City
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/18/2002 15:08:00   
xeerex,

I agree with what you have written, but it is a helluva lot easier to prosecute someone when you have the notices of copyright on your work.

That' s why software vendors put the information at the beginning of your setup. By clicking agree it means you read and understood the terms. If you violate the terms they can sue you. And the process will move much faster because that information was provided prior to you loading the software.

_____________________________

"go forth and create."

(in reply to xeerex)
xeerex

 

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From: Texas
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/23/2002 1:07:16   
Agreed as well, Seventh.

The TOS for most things (EULA' s included) are barely read by most people. I bet a lot of people would be shocked at some of them.

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Webmaster in Perpetual Training
Xeerex The Wizard
aka Rex Moncrief

Web Design / Web Hosting / Graphics / eCommerce

(in reply to _gail)
caywind

 

Posts: 1479
From: USA
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/23/2002 17:01:26   
<.02> You can put the copyright info on the page or pic. You will not have a legal recourse unless you register the copyright with the copyright office. That requires legal expertise and $$$. There are some sites that will take care of the registration for you for anywhere from $75 up. </.02>

(in reply to _gail)
Seventh

 

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From: The Motor City
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/23/2002 18:28:12   
quote:

You will not have a legal recourse unless you register the copyright with the copyright office.


Not necessarily. I have won several copyright infringement cases without doing this. How? I would create the original, date it, sign it, put the original file onto a disk and then mail it to myself. I would then put the self-addressed envelope in my safe deposit box. When an issue came up I would go and retrieve the necessary file from the box and present it to the court as evidence - along with a note from the bank which keeps detailed records on all of my entries.

Albeit, this was before I knew the procedures for actually registering for a copyright, but it still holds up in court.

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(in reply to caywind)
PBailey

 

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From: San Antonio, Texas USA
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/24/2002 3:07:42   
quote:

It' s actually suppose to inform someone that ' these statements are on this site because I have a contract that can back them up!'


Seventh,

Are you saying that the contract would state who owns the copyrights? What happens if a designer does a site under this type of contract for pay with no provision that they will maintain it. When finished it is turned over to the client who maintains it. If the contract states that the designer has a copyright on the design would the client then not have the right to make any changes to the design?



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Paula

Thought for the day: Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

(in reply to Seventh)
Seventh

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/24/2002 15:24:06   
[Note: I am not a lawyer and these statements are simply how I have handled cases relevant to the questions below.]

I' ll answer these in bits and pieces.
quote:

Are you saying that the contract would state who owns the copyrights?


No, I' m saying that a contract should state who will own the final product and how the actual work will be used by either the creator and/or the owner.

quote:

What happens if a designer does a site under this type of contract for pay with no provision that they will maintain it. When finished it is turned over to the client who maintains it. If the contract states that the designer has a copyright on the design would the client then not have the right to make any changes to the design?


The key words are ' would the client' . More than likely if you' re desinging a site for a client they want to, and in most cases should, own everything. This should be included in your cost and contract.

But to answer your question, if the contract states that the client cannot make changes to the design, then they can' t make changes to that design without written approval from the designer. If they do then legal action can be used against the client.


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Doug G

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/24/2002 15:24:31   
I believe there is an implied leaning toward the copyright being a " work for hire" if you as a designer have a contract with a client to create for them web page(s) for money, unless the contract specifically states otherwise.

There is a section in the copyright laws in the US defining " work for hire" .

Of course, imho the owner of copyright in any hired development should be explicitly stated in the contract so there is no confusion.



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Doug G
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Doug G

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/24/2002 15:25:58   
I' m too slow (got distracted by a fight on the tv football game) [:p]

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Doug G
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PBailey

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/24/2002 20:21:53   
Thanks Seventh and Doug. Your answers have helped to clear the fog.

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Paula

Thought for the day: Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

(in reply to _gail)
bryman

 

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From: Indianapolis IN USA
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/27/2002 15:59:06   
As one who negotiates with outside developers as part of a complete Intra and ExtraNet system, I find all these comments rather comical.

If you do work for me, I provide you with the exact copyright script that you will insert on all the appropriate pages of my site(s). Any customer of yours (commercial or volunteer) who doesn' t mandate the same for their firms are not to be considered " informed" business people.

[attitude and perseverance = Success]

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_gail

 

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From: So FL
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/27/2002 16:55:41   

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryman

I find all these comments rather comical.

[attitude and perseverance = Success]


Well, that' s an interesting statement. I suppose if I had your experience I wouldn' t have needed to ask the question in the first place.

I do appreciate your insights. Interesting quote, btw.

gail

(in reply to bryman)
Doug G

 

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From: SoCal
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/27/2002 23:41:39   
quote:

Any customer of yours (commercial or volunteer) who doesn' t mandate the same for their firms are not to be considered " informed" business people.

[attitude and perseverance = Success]

I do sense an " attitude" here. IMHO informed business people don' t make blanket statements like this :)


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Doug G
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xeerex

 

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From: Texas
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 11/28/2002 23:02:11   
quote:

Any customer of yours (commercial or volunteer) who doesn' t mandate the same for their firms are not to be considered " informed" business people.
You want to define " informed" ? My experience in web design as well as other businesses is that ignorance is still bliss even with " informed" people.

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Webmaster in Perpetual Training
Xeerex The Wizard
aka Rex Moncrief

Web Design / Web Hosting / Graphics / eCommerce

(in reply to _gail)
DarlingBri

 

Posts: 3123
From: Left of Centre, Cork, Ireland
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 12/3/2002 2:42:22   
Gail...

You own the copyright to your work. You did not produce it under contract and it is not a work for hire. The copyright is yours unless you assign it to another.

Your copyright is born when the work is born. There is zero requirement to register it with the copyright office.

Bryman...

I hope you' re happy in the corporate world. You seem well suited to it. You will find that outside Intranets and Extranets, the Internet thrives on ad-hoc communities -- like, oh... this one -- where contractual boundaries are late in arriving, if they ever do.

Pop quiz -- and no looking or cheating: who owns the copyright to your post, Bryman?

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Spooky

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 12/3/2002 2:54:40   
Me. Mwuahahahaha!
Its mine, all mine! ........ isnt it? :)

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§þ:)


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Seventh

 

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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 12/3/2002 5:58:53   
quote:

Original: DarlingBri
Pop quiz -- and no looking or cheating: who owns the copyright to your post, Bryman?


We seem to be on the same page.:)

< Message edited by seventh -- 12/3/2002 8:23:58 AM >


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DarlingBri

 

Posts: 3123
From: Left of Centre, Cork, Ireland
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 12/3/2002 9:59:51   
quote:

We seem to be on the same page.


Same church, same pew, same hymn book even :)

(in reply to Seventh)
xeerex

 

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From: Texas
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RE: Copyright on webpages: Is it worth a dang?! - 12/4/2002 12:08:38   
quote:

There is zero requirement to register it with the copyright office.
This is not entirely correct. True you do NOT have to register the copyright, but you must before an infringement suit is filed.

Direct from the US Gov Copyright site:
quote:

COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION
In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:

Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.

Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.

If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.

If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney' s fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.

Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, request Publication No. 563 " How to Protect Your Intellectual Property Right," from: U.S. Customs Service, P.O. Box 7404, Washington, D.C. 20044. See the U.S. Customs Service Website at www.customs.gov for online publications.

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright. Unlike the law before 1978, when a work has been registered in unpublished form, it is not necessary to make another registration when the work becomes published, although the copyright owner may register the published edition, if desired.
So no you are not REQUIRED to register. However, if the need unfortunately arises for court action, then yes you are required.

_____________________________

Webmaster in Perpetual Training
Xeerex The Wizard
aka Rex Moncrief

Web Design / Web Hosting / Graphics / eCommerce

(in reply to _gail)
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