Finding Business??? (Full Version)

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barry -> Finding Business??? (10/17/2002 20:41:46)

Ok,

The more i do web sites the more sites I want to do, thus that is the problem.

I am a marketing mad man, and I am pretty confident that I can keep a steady stream flowing BUT i am also overly optimistic about everything and don' t want to over extend. My sales skill far exceed my design skills (I am an ex-Enron Salesman, shhhhhh[:j])

Ultimately I would like to concentrate on the marketing, sales, proposal, presentation side and leave the building, coding to more capable hands.

the major questions are:

1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print

2) what happens if/when I get overwhelmed with work (does anyone have experience sub contracting work out? Pros, cons, pitfalls). Do you contract with capable designers first or after the deal is nailed.

3)What is standard percentages for the designer 70% 80% 90%, I am clueless?

I know that my company will have ultimate liability, but I would think folks would like a steady stream as well. Obviously this is all mind candy at this point but who knows.....[:)]

Any feedback would be appreciated, any info about companys that have already Blazed this trail would also be appreciated.

thanks,
Barry







EWD -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/18/2002 1:26:57)

Barry - It seems to me that you' d do well. I personally wish I had better sales skills, but it still kinda intimidates me so I leave it to people I have the good fortune to know who are good at it.

As for sub-contracting, I do it all the time mostly because I get a lot of work and I just don' t have enough hours to do it all. I have built up a list of trusted friends by networking at user group meetings, classes, etc. I get to know them and their strengths and have found that they are always willing to take on a project here or there to expand their skills or their wallets. I generally list the work available and what I can pay for it, but if it' s a job I' m not that familiar with, like lots of database stuff, I bring them in at the quote stage so I know what they expect to earn for the job. (that helps reduce scope creep too, since I know better than to over promise.)

Yes, I am ultimately responsible for their work, but because I spend a lot of time getting to know them beforehand I' ve had some very successful ventures.



abbeyvet -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/18/2002 4:44:32)

quote:

1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print


Word of mouth is of course only good once you have a big enough number of mouths spreading the word!

I am terrible at marketing, its just so time consuming, so I rely heavily on word of mouth. I also do some local radio on computer related topics and the Internet, that is not directly selling my services but does bring in some business. Aside from word of mouth most of my work comes directly from my site.

quote:

2) what happens if/when I get overwhelmed with work (does anyone have experience sub contracting work out? Pros, cons, pitfalls). Do you contract with capable designers first or after the deal is nailed.


This is one area of work where using subcontractors is easy and effective. I have both used them and worked as one on lots of occasions. I have made a few contacts through http://www.elance.com but there is no reason in the world why you could not also use OF as a source of subcontractors. Get them whereever you can but be sure they are people you trust and who you can communicate with easily.

I think you would need to contact them before hand to be sure your pricing was sufficient to actually allow them to deliver what you need. There will in all likelihood be occasions where you will have a few contractors on the same job - perhaps a designer and a programmer, with maybe an SEO person also. So you need to get a fix on not just the cost of but the availability of each.


quote:

3)What is standard percentages for the designer 70% 80% 90%, I am clueless?

I would think it is entirely up to yo what your margins are, but from my point of view if I am subcontracting for someone I have no interest in what they are charging, I charge what I charge, I don' t look on it as a percentage. I would personally never agree to do work at a percentage of what someone else could sell it for, unless the work was very clearly defined in advance and the price was very clearly defined in advance.

Basically I think if you work like this, where you sell the product and then get subcontactors working on it, you are becoming a project manager, your job is to juggle the requirments of your clients, find the best people to do the job, price their work and then mark it up however you see fit.

This is all a bit vague and off the top of my head but I hope it is of some use to you.



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/18/2002 7:55:07)

Thanks,

EWD and Katherine, BIG help in helping me gel this.

I really value your imput and I will keep you appraized of how things turn out. [:)]

Barry



Thomas Brunt -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 11:38:50)

Hi Barry,

Stay tuned. OutFront has a new product/service launch targeted for Tuesday the 22nd. I think this might be right up your ally.

t



Thomas Brunt -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 13:11:53)

Another thing.

It' s pretty common for folks like you to hire OutFront to develop custom web templates for their clients. We charge a set fee for that. The developer charges what the market will bear for the finished site.

The developer does the selling and the content integration. The designer does the design. In that scenario, percentages don' t make sense. A sinlge template could be used to make a 5 or a 500 page site. The 500 page site should cost more, but the design probably doesn' t have to.

t



erinatkins -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 13:15:04)

Thomas,

I marked my calendar so I will be ready for your new product/service launch.


Erin



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 13:29:01)

TB,

That is a wonderful thing! I am processing the information[>:] and I will make this happen

Thanks,
Barry



_gail -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 14:03:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barry

1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print



Most, but not all, of my experience deals with the local market which is a target I wish to tap for my web design business. Here' s a few things I' ve found useful.

Within the local market:

Besides the all-if-not-most-important word-of-mouth, my experience is that the best flow of business comes from a display ad the Yellow Pages. We placed a 1/4 page ad under what we felt would be the most appropriate heading in the pages, with references to it here and there under other listings. We did not rely on Bell South to design our ad; we did it ourselves. If you go this route, check, recheck and double check the proof. Once an error is in the Yellow pages it can not be corrected for a year!

For radio, tv and print to be effective, you need to budget enough monies so ads run for an extended time. As we say in politics " name recognition, name recognition, name recognition." TV is probably the most effective way to go. Cable ads can target your area and tend to be more affordable than other media.

When my husband and I opened our print and graphic design business years ago, we hardly had a cent left over for advertising. So we made simple but effective flyers and handed them out and placed them on car windshields. Not everyone is keen on this but it really worked.

Right now, I' m putting together a simple package and am planning to literally knock on doors of small businesses. I want to look people in the eye, give them a hearty handshake and be available to make the case for my product and answer any questions.

Outside the local market:

Though you want to do this eventually yourself, I have a salesperson who is very well-connected with businesses in another state. I pay a percentage of any job I get through her.

My goal is to eventually rely only on word-of-mouth. It is not only the most effective, but most gratifying.

gail

ps for what it' s worth, I' ve always liked to grow my businesses slowly but steadily. I' d rather turn away work than make promises I can' t fulfill. As others pointed out, know your subcontractors well. Using the subcontracting services of someone who is unreliable can do more to hurt your business than you can yourself.





barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/19/2002 16:00:44)

Thanks Gail,

quote:

Right now, I' m putting together a simple package and am planning to literally knock on doors of small businesses. I want to look people in the eye, give them a hearty handshake and be available to make the case for my product and answer any questions.



This I really, really like. The simple fact is not many people (especially Tech folks) are willing to do something as mundane as " cold call" (it' s so retro), me I perfected it[:D]

I will let you know!

thanks



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/21/2002 17:09:16)

I am ready!!

I spent the week-end working on a marketing package (it looks Great!) I even had a pro proof it! (remember I can' t spell alicck, hehe)

I am taking off from my real job on Teusday to COLD Call a low-mid end office park. I have tele scouted the contacts there with 1 appiontment and lots of contact names (6 realestate co, 5 accounting co, and a bunch of doctors offices, with a good smattering of b2b suppliers)

I am wired, siked, and ready to go. One of these folks are goint to pay for my vaction to HI, and somebody is going to buy me a sporty new car!

i wll keep you' al updated![:)][:)][:)][:p][:D]

Barry on the Hunt!!!!




erinatkins -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/22/2002 8:52:47)

Hi Barry,

I am sure you will do a great job. I hope you were successful.

We have found word of mouth to be our best resource. We get lots of referral business.

We did try a marketing campaign & that did not go as well. :-(

We also have done well with our ad in the phone book.


Erin




Helene -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/22/2002 9:47:39)


quote:

2) what happens if/when I get overwhelmed with work (does anyone have experience sub contracting work out? Pros, cons, pitfalls). Do you contract with capable designers first or after the deal is nailed.


Barry:
In my experience, this is one of the toughest things to deal with. I suggest you start NOW to develop relationships with folks who you can subcontract to and whom you can can trust to match your level of professionalism. I didn' t prepare ahead, (too busy, too busy) and now I find myself turning down new work on a weekly basis. I just don' t have the time to deal with subcontracting issues, but if I' d taken the time to prepare back when I wasn' t so busy, I could probably have a nicer work stream set up by now that would allow me to take on all jobs.


quote:

What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door.

Here' s what did it for me. I made friends with a local ISP. They have tons of clients needing sites and many new site owners didn' t/don' t think globally. Many folks want to work with a local developer. After seeing samples of my work (charity sites for local non-profits etc.) The ISP put me on their list of developers and put the propects in touch with me by phone. After I' d done the first one or two commercial sites it was all word of mouth from there.

I find that a mature, professional attitude counts for a lot in this field where young upstarts breeze in and out without much sincere customer care. I also make a real effort to speak in terms that lay people can understand. Respect your clients and they will respect you and give you plenty of work and referrals. [:)]



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/22/2002 16:42:25)

Ok

Here is what happened on my 1st cold call day.

WOW people have really been taken advatage of!!!

I went to 19 business, had 1 schedualed appt, and spoke with 4 non-schedual dession makers. People a very wary of internet, web, computer anything. They know that they need it but they hate to deal with it. All said and done I have 5 proposals to do and 10 other people to call back!

We will see![:)]

barry



erinatkins -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/23/2002 9:18:08)

Barry,

That is great.[:D][:D]

Keep up the good work.

Erin



_gail -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/23/2002 9:45:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barry

Ok

Here is what happened on my 1st cold call day.

All said and done I have 5 proposals to do and 10 other people to call back



WOW, Barry. Congrat!

Yup, cold, mundane retro really works! [;)]

Keep us posted.

quote:


WOW people have really been taken advatage of!!!


I' d be interested to hear more about the basis of this observation.


Gail



Thomas Brunt -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/23/2002 10:26:40)

Barry,

You did better on your first day than I did in my first 6 months. Keep up the good work.

I have talked to a lot of former web development clients who have been burned.

Typical scenario:

The developer starts by registering the domain in her/his name -- not the client' s name. The client would surely object to this if the client understood what was happening, but the client doesn' t understand at that point.

The developer lets the client do scope creep (because she/he fears loosing the job) until the client successfully makes the project completely unprofitable for the developer. " Scope creep" happens when the client asks for extra things at no additoinal charge. Quite often the client will swear the " extra" was part of the original agreement. The client honestly believes this sometimes, but it' s usually untrue. The developer winds up with a number of projects that go wrong in similar ways. The clients hound the developer to do things the developer promised to do but lacks the technical expertise to accomplish. Other clients do too. The developer decides to go out of business and tries hard to make it so the clients can' t find her/him to do more hounding.

The clients are left with screwed up web sites on domains that they don' t own. They have no idea how to go about looking up the owner to do anything about it, and it' s quite unclear what they could do about it if they could find the owner.

This is very common.

Keep projects a simple as possible -- even when it means making a lot less money. You build your business by creating satisfied clients. It' s a lot easeir to satisfy a client on a small project than a large one. I can' t stress that enough. I' ve never seen a large Web project where the client was truly satisfied.


t



Helene -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/23/2002 14:28:33)

quote:

Keep projects a simple as possible -- even when it means making a lot less money. You build your business by creating satisfied clients. It' s a lot easeir to satisfy a client on a small project than a large one. I can' t stress that enough. I' ve never seen a large Web project where the client was truly satisfied.


This is so true. I' m embarrassed to say I don' t use contracts (yet!). My work comes from word of mouth and satisfied clients. When folks ask me " What does it cost to put up a web site?" (wish I had a $1 for every time I' d been asked that one, I could retire) I say that' s akin to asking " How much to remodel my bathroom?" or " How much does a small painting cost?" . The range is infinite; it' s better to let the client tell you their budget and then you can work around that number, and it usually means they end up with a simple site that pleases them.

I work only on an hourly basis. I do some and if they want more, they pay for more. I keep them very informed and involved throughout the process so there are no surprises. I warn them about what' s around the next corner, and they make the decision to go there or not. Also, I always stress, throughout the project, that this is THEIR site. Giving them tidbits of info along the way makes them feel involved and responsible, so they become as accountable as you are. You become the advisor and implementor for THEIR project.



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/23/2002 17:37:47)

Helene,

You are another OF wizard that I want to be like when i grow up! I checked out your site and WOW!

You make perfect wonderful scence. Thanks

Barry



Radio Guy -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/24/2002 13:48:47)

Barry said " scence" so I had to stick my nose in.
My morning job is radio, so I also use radio to advertise my business. The secret? Repetition. Like Gail said, name recognition, which involves repeating the name, but you probably know that by now. (by the way, gail, I hate flyers, but they seem to work.)
Get your name on everything from business cards to websites.
Helene' s idea about making friends with a local ISP was great too. I did just that, and now I can combine my creativeness with their technological advances to offer a product that impresses my client. (not that they need impressing once they see me!)
One thing I do somewhat differently from Helene is that I offer a price list to the customer. I charge more for the first page with a lesser charge for each page after that. The list includes charges for updates, photography (if I take the photos), and even shows how much a domain name and hosting costs. Now the customer shouldn' t be able to say " I didn' t know..."
Barry, I envy your gusto for cold-calling. I hate it. Glad to hear you' re doing so well with it.



LarryMcJ -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/24/2002 17:59:55)

Barry,

I' ve seen it in a couple of subsequent posts in this thread, but I' ll reiterate it because it is so important. Elance has netted me ten highly skilled subcontractors to either do the things I don' t want to do, or even the things I normally do myself if I' m extremely busy. I put up small projects there and then get to know the bidders via private email...the end result is building a list of valuable contacts you can rely on.

A good example is graphics. I hate building logos, mucking around in PhotoShop or PSP and by the time I would waste three hours building some mediocre graphic I can put in on Elance.com and have 20 bids on it in an hour and all for $50. These people are good, too...you should see some of their portfolios.

You can' t do this by yourself and be successful...subcontracting in this business is very profitable and something you should rely upon. Just be sure you find people who can do the things you want the way YOU want them done...not how THEY want them done.

Larry



Helene -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/25/2002 8:55:57)

What Larry says is true. I too have used Elance in the past. They' ve been my saving grace in a couple of instances, and always with satisfactory results.



ritachick -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/25/2002 22:42:40)

Barry,

I too am great at marketing, so good in fact that I' ve gotten myself into hot water a couple of times by taking on too much at one time. It is important to grow your business slowly and to keep learning as you go. I may get in trouble for saying this but I don' t think it is fair to rely on Pre-Designed purchased templates to keep up with a steady stream of work as some do. It is just as important to build your craft and develop your skills as it is to get lot' s of business. A satified customer will get you more business than most other means. Believe me I am just like you I have to constantly pull back on marketing because I end up taking on way to many clients...and it is just not fair to them. Just my opinion.



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/26/2002 15:38:12)

Hi everybody,

I was out of town for a few days and NO PC. OF withdrawals are tough![&:]

I had to stay up Teausday night working on my website. It is not done yet but after cold calling, people were pulling up my site when I was in their office![:o] I saw all of the mistakes on my site that I had always planned to get back to and correct but never did. So important to have your personal site perfect! Check it out in the Cretique section on Monday evening.

Thanks for all of the information! I hope you all and others will continue to post your marketing victories and failures. It helps me greatly to gel the " Next Big Step"

I will go out cold calling again on Wend after I spend more time with my site!

Barry



Seventh -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/27/2002 2:52:31)

Barry,

It' s always a good idea to make sure your site works before you send people to it. Why? Some will say, " Hey, if his doesn' t look right what will mine look like?"

Just my 2 cents.



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/27/2002 15:37:19)

Thanks 7th,

Your 2 cents is always worth more to me.

Boy did I learn this. luckily folks were more interested in the portfolio pages. I also found that people want to see as much " business info" as possible.

Prices
contract information
sample of e-commerce stuff

I think that people find security in confirming what you say by what on your site. Thats what I need to add.[:)]

Barry



barry -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/29/2002 10:47:55)

I had meetings with two people that I cold called last week. The meetings were to present, and discuss the proposal and answer any questions.

One group were blown away by the presentation and said that they appreciated the time and effort I put into it. They were going to talk to other designers/developers and check my references. [:)] Very positive

The second guy kept me in there for 3.5 hours. We talked about the site, what tech can do for his company, the sniper, his grandson, fishing, Sadam, GeorgeW, his wife, my wife, his boat, his current web site, his tour in Vietnam, the dry cleaners on corner, Walmart, Kmart and Sears. Whew!

I left with the check for 1/2 [:)]

cya,
Barry




erinatkins -> RE: Finding Business??? (10/29/2002 13:21:19)

Barry,

Sounds great. [:D]

Erin



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