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barry
Posts: 739
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Baltimore, MD
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Finding Business??? - 10/17/2002 20:41:46
Ok,
The more i do web sites the more sites I want to do, thus that is the problem.
I am a marketing mad man, and I am pretty confident that I can keep a steady stream flowing BUT i am also overly optimistic about everything and don' t want to over extend. My sales skill far exceed my design skills (I am an ex-Enron Salesman, shhhhhh[:j])
Ultimately I would like to concentrate on the marketing, sales, proposal, presentation side and leave the building, coding to more capable hands.
the major questions are:
1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print
2) what happens if/when I get overwhelmed with work (does anyone have experience sub contracting work out? Pros, cons, pitfalls). Do you contract with capable designers first or after the deal is nailed.
3)What is standard percentages for the designer 70% 80% 90%, I am clueless?
I know that my company will have ultimate liability, but I would think folks would like a steady stream as well. Obviously this is all mind candy at this point but who knows.....
Any feedback would be appreciated, any info about companys that have already Blazed this trail would also be appreciated.
thanks,
Barry
< Message edited by barry -- 10/16/2002 8:44:24 PM >
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EWD
Posts: 1052
From: BeauFlow, NY
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/18/2002 1:26:57
Barry - It seems to me that you' d do well. I personally wish I had better sales skills, but it still kinda intimidates me so I leave it to people I have the good fortune to know who are good at it.
As for sub-contracting, I do it all the time mostly because I get a lot of work and I just don' t have enough hours to do it all. I have built up a list of trusted friends by networking at user group meetings, classes, etc. I get to know them and their strengths and have found that they are always willing to take on a project here or there to expand their skills or their wallets. I generally list the work available and what I can pay for it, but if it' s a job I' m not that familiar with, like lots of database stuff, I bring them in at the quote stage so I know what they expect to earn for the job. (that helps reduce scope creep too, since I know better than to over promise.)
Yes, I am ultimately responsible for their work, but because I spend a lot of time getting to know them beforehand I' ve had some very successful ventures.
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/18/2002 4:44:32
quote:
1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print
Word of mouth is of course only good once you have a big enough number of mouths spreading the word!
I am terrible at marketing, its just so time consuming, so I rely heavily on word of mouth. I also do some local radio on computer related topics and the Internet, that is not directly selling my services but does bring in some business. Aside from word of mouth most of my work comes directly from my site.
quote:
2) what happens if/when I get overwhelmed with work (does anyone have experience sub contracting work out? Pros, cons, pitfalls). Do you contract with capable designers first or after the deal is nailed.
This is one area of work where using subcontractors is easy and effective. I have both used them and worked as one on lots of occasions. I have made a few contacts through http://www.elance.com but there is no reason in the world why you could not also use OF as a source of subcontractors. Get them whereever you can but be sure they are people you trust and who you can communicate with easily.
I think you would need to contact them before hand to be sure your pricing was sufficient to actually allow them to deliver what you need. There will in all likelihood be occasions where you will have a few contractors on the same job - perhaps a designer and a programmer, with maybe an SEO person also. So you need to get a fix on not just the cost of but the availability of each.
quote:
3)What is standard percentages for the designer 70% 80% 90%, I am clueless?
I would think it is entirely up to yo what your margins are, but from my point of view if I am subcontracting for someone I have no interest in what they are charging, I charge what I charge, I don' t look on it as a percentage. I would personally never agree to do work at a percentage of what someone else could sell it for, unless the work was very clearly defined in advance and the price was very clearly defined in advance.
Basically I think if you work like this, where you sell the product and then get subcontactors working on it, you are becoming a project manager, your job is to juggle the requirments of your clients, find the best people to do the job, price their work and then mark it up however you see fit.
This is all a bit vague and off the top of my head but I hope it is of some use to you.
< Message edited by abbeyvet -- 10/17/2002 9:49:27 AM >
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Katherine
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Thomas Brunt
Posts: 6106
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From: St. Matthews SC USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/19/2002 11:38:50
Hi Barry,
Stay tuned. OutFront has a new product/service launch targeted for Tuesday the 22nd. I think this might be right up your ally.
t
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Thomas Brunt
Posts: 6106
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From: St. Matthews SC USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/19/2002 13:11:53
Another thing.
It' s pretty common for folks like you to hire OutFront to develop custom web templates for their clients. We charge a set fee for that. The developer charges what the market will bear for the finished site.
The developer does the selling and the content integration. The designer does the design. In that scenario, percentages don' t make sense. A sinlge template could be used to make a 5 or a 500 page site. The 500 page site should cost more, but the design probably doesn' t have to.
t
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erinatkins
Posts: 3072
From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/19/2002 13:15:04
Thomas,
I marked my calendar so I will be ready for your new product/service launch.
Erin
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_gail
Posts: 2874
From: So FL
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/19/2002 14:03:31
quote:
ORIGINAL: barry
1) What are effective proven ways to stack the deck with interested prospects and ultimately proposals out the door. Word of mouth speaks loudly but I am prepared to do Radio, TV and print
Most, but not all, of my experience deals with the local market which is a target I wish to tap for my web design business. Here' s a few things I' ve found useful.
Within the local market:
Besides the all-if-not-most-important word-of-mouth, my experience is that the best flow of business comes from a display ad the Yellow Pages. We placed a 1/4 page ad under what we felt would be the most appropriate heading in the pages, with references to it here and there under other listings. We did not rely on Bell South to design our ad; we did it ourselves. If you go this route, check, recheck and double check the proof. Once an error is in the Yellow pages it can not be corrected for a year!
For radio, tv and print to be effective, you need to budget enough monies so ads run for an extended time. As we say in politics " name recognition, name recognition, name recognition." TV is probably the most effective way to go. Cable ads can target your area and tend to be more affordable than other media.
When my husband and I opened our print and graphic design business years ago, we hardly had a cent left over for advertising. So we made simple but effective flyers and handed them out and placed them on car windshields. Not everyone is keen on this but it really worked.
Right now, I' m putting together a simple package and am planning to literally knock on doors of small businesses. I want to look people in the eye, give them a hearty handshake and be available to make the case for my product and answer any questions.
Outside the local market:
Though you want to do this eventually yourself, I have a salesperson who is very well-connected with businesses in another state. I pay a percentage of any job I get through her.
My goal is to eventually rely only on word-of-mouth. It is not only the most effective, but most gratifying.
gail
ps for what it' s worth, I' ve always liked to grow my businesses slowly but steadily. I' d rather turn away work than make promises I can' t fulfill. As others pointed out, know your subcontractors well. Using the subcontracting services of someone who is unreliable can do more to hurt your business than you can yourself.
< Message edited by _gail -- 10/18/2002 2:10:23 PM >
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erinatkins
Posts: 3072
From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/22/2002 8:52:47
Hi Barry,
I am sure you will do a great job. I hope you were successful.
We have found word of mouth to be our best resource. We get lots of referral business.
We did try a marketing campaign & that did not go as well. :-(
We also have done well with our ad in the phone book.
Erin
_____________________________
All Hail Great Spooky - Master of the Outfront Forums. He can make you or break you.
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Thomas Brunt
Posts: 6106
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/23/2002 10:26:40
Barry,
You did better on your first day than I did in my first 6 months. Keep up the good work.
I have talked to a lot of former web development clients who have been burned.
Typical scenario:
The developer starts by registering the domain in her/his name -- not the client' s name. The client would surely object to this if the client understood what was happening, but the client doesn' t understand at that point.
The developer lets the client do scope creep (because she/he fears loosing the job) until the client successfully makes the project completely unprofitable for the developer. " Scope creep" happens when the client asks for extra things at no additoinal charge. Quite often the client will swear the " extra" was part of the original agreement. The client honestly believes this sometimes, but it' s usually untrue. The developer winds up with a number of projects that go wrong in similar ways. The clients hound the developer to do things the developer promised to do but lacks the technical expertise to accomplish. Other clients do too. The developer decides to go out of business and tries hard to make it so the clients can' t find her/him to do more hounding.
The clients are left with screwed up web sites on domains that they don' t own. They have no idea how to go about looking up the owner to do anything about it, and it' s quite unclear what they could do about it if they could find the owner.
This is very common.
Keep projects a simple as possible -- even when it means making a lot less money. You build your business by creating satisfied clients. It' s a lot easeir to satisfy a client on a small project than a large one. I can' t stress that enough. I' ve never seen a large Web project where the client was truly satisfied.
t
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Helene
Posts: 213
Joined: 9/17/2002
From: a small island in Canada eh?
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/23/2002 14:28:33
quote:
Keep projects a simple as possible -- even when it means making a lot less money. You build your business by creating satisfied clients. It' s a lot easeir to satisfy a client on a small project than a large one. I can' t stress that enough. I' ve never seen a large Web project where the client was truly satisfied.
This is so true. I' m embarrassed to say I don' t use contracts (yet!). My work comes from word of mouth and satisfied clients. When folks ask me " What does it cost to put up a web site?" (wish I had a $1 for every time I' d been asked that one, I could retire) I say that' s akin to asking " How much to remodel my bathroom?" or " How much does a small painting cost?" . The range is infinite; it' s better to let the client tell you their budget and then you can work around that number, and it usually means they end up with a simple site that pleases them.
I work only on an hourly basis. I do some and if they want more, they pay for more. I keep them very informed and involved throughout the process so there are no surprises. I warn them about what' s around the next corner, and they make the decision to go there or not. Also, I always stress, throughout the project, that this is THEIR site. Giving them tidbits of info along the way makes them feel involved and responsible, so they become as accountable as you are. You become the advisor and implementor for THEIR project.
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Helene M.
websitemanagement.ca
Personal Site:
Best of Salt Spring Online
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barry
Posts: 739
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Baltimore, MD
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/23/2002 17:37:47
Helene,
You are another OF wizard that I want to be like when i grow up! I checked out your site and WOW!
You make perfect wonderful scence. Thanks
Barry
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Radio Guy
Posts: 251
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Vidalia Louisiana USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/24/2002 13:48:47
Barry said " scence" so I had to stick my nose in.
My morning job is radio, so I also use radio to advertise my business. The secret? Repetition. Like Gail said, name recognition, which involves repeating the name, but you probably know that by now. (by the way, gail, I hate flyers, but they seem to work.)
Get your name on everything from business cards to websites.
Helene' s idea about making friends with a local ISP was great too. I did just that, and now I can combine my creativeness with their technological advances to offer a product that impresses my client. (not that they need impressing once they see me!)
One thing I do somewhat differently from Helene is that I offer a price list to the customer. I charge more for the first page with a lesser charge for each page after that. The list includes charges for updates, photography (if I take the photos), and even shows how much a domain name and hosting costs. Now the customer shouldn' t be able to say " I didn' t know..."
Barry, I envy your gusto for cold-calling. I hate it. Glad to hear you' re doing so well with it.
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#1 Country Song with a bullet: " They May Put Me In Prison, But They Can' t Stop My Face From Breakin' Out"
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LarryMcJ
Posts: 80
From: Chesapeake VA USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/24/2002 17:59:55
Barry,
I' ve seen it in a couple of subsequent posts in this thread, but I' ll reiterate it because it is so important. Elance has netted me ten highly skilled subcontractors to either do the things I don' t want to do, or even the things I normally do myself if I' m extremely busy. I put up small projects there and then get to know the bidders via private email...the end result is building a list of valuable contacts you can rely on.
A good example is graphics. I hate building logos, mucking around in PhotoShop or PSP and by the time I would waste three hours building some mediocre graphic I can put in on Elance.com and have 20 bids on it in an hour and all for $50. These people are good, too...you should see some of their portfolios.
You can' t do this by yourself and be successful...subcontracting in this business is very profitable and something you should rely upon. Just be sure you find people who can do the things you want the way YOU want them done...not how THEY want them done.
Larry
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Helene
Posts: 213
Joined: 9/17/2002
From: a small island in Canada eh?
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/25/2002 8:55:57
What Larry says is true. I too have used Elance in the past. They' ve been my saving grace in a couple of instances, and always with satisfactory results.
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Helene M.
websitemanagement.ca
Personal Site:
Best of Salt Spring Online
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ritachick
Posts: 114
From: Mundelein IL USA
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/25/2002 22:42:40
Barry,
I too am great at marketing, so good in fact that I' ve gotten myself into hot water a couple of times by taking on too much at one time. It is important to grow your business slowly and to keep learning as you go. I may get in trouble for saying this but I don' t think it is fair to rely on Pre-Designed purchased templates to keep up with a steady stream of work as some do. It is just as important to build your craft and develop your skills as it is to get lot' s of business. A satified customer will get you more business than most other means. Believe me I am just like you I have to constantly pull back on marketing because I end up taking on way to many clients...and it is just not fair to them. Just my opinion.
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http://www.artisticwebdesigner.com
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Seventh
Posts: 1235
Joined: 8/4/2002
From: The Motor City
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/27/2002 2:52:31
Barry,
It' s always a good idea to make sure your site works before you send people to it. Why? Some will say, " Hey, if his doesn' t look right what will mine look like?"
Just my 2 cents.
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"go forth and create."
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barry
Posts: 739
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Baltimore, MD
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RE: Finding Business??? - 10/29/2002 10:47:55
I had meetings with two people that I cold called last week. The meetings were to present, and discuss the proposal and answer any questions.
One group were blown away by the presentation and said that they appreciated the time and effort I put into it. They were going to talk to other designers/developers and check my references. Very positive
The second guy kept me in there for 3.5 hours. We talked about the site, what tech can do for his company, the sniper, his grandson, fishing, Sadam, GeorgeW, his wife, my wife, his boat, his current web site, his tour in Vietnam, the dry cleaners on corner, Walmart, Kmart and Sears. Whew!
I left with the check for 1/2
cya,
Barry
< Message edited by barry -- 10/29/2002 10:49:03 AM >
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Printable Version 
and I will make this happen 
I saw all of the mistakes on my site that I had always planned to get back to and correct but never did. So important to have your personal site perfect! Check it out in the Cretique section on Monday evening. 