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Andy from Spain
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From: Ipswich
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 10/24/2002 14:46:27
Hi
I hadn' t heard about that but I remember a couple of years ago when British Telecom claimed they had the patent to a hyperlink so everyone using one (in their opinion) would have to pay for the rights to use one - true story by the way, but haven' t heard anything since.
Cheers
Andy
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Paula
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From: Morrow, Georgia, USA
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 10/25/2002 1:20:37
This is really frightening. It looks to me like it would be in the best interest of the " big" guys, Amazon, eBay, etc. or Microsoft, Sun and so forth to help these folks defend themselves, before serious legal precedents are set. At the moment, it looks like a winnable defense, but if enough of these small companies settle, that would seem to be something of a precedent in itself. It could mean that really small companies couldn' t even get started on the internet anymore. Looks like this group is going to take a stand and from what I read it sounds like something worth supporting. Think I' m going to pop over and buy some chocolates! I' ll be really interested to hear what others have to say about this.
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Doug G
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 10/25/2002 3:57:08
Actually, Amazon is one of the bad guys in this regard, as in their one-click patent dispute with Barnes & Noble and others, so I doubt they will be jumping in on the side of the business being sued. Because of Amazon' s attempt to enforce a " business process" patent just like the company in this article, I have not purchased anything from Amazon in nearly two years, and don' t intend to until they change their policy.
The real problem is the US Patent Office granting these kinds of patents in the first place. I think granting a patent for any of the examples discussed here is totally absurd.
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 10/25/2002 10:33:11
I totally agree this is ridiculous. More lawyers who can' t make money by doing something useful.
And the USPTO needs to get their heads out of the sand and tighen up the burden of proof. These exceptionally general language in the patents lends itself right into these types of problems, and since when should a patent be allowed for a common business practice?
On the other hand....I wonder if anyone' s patented an electronic system for connecting to the Internet and posting information warning fellow merchants of frivolous lawsuits?
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 10/30/2002 10:01:50
More press coverage at:
http://www.internetretailer.com/dailyNews.asp?id=7954.
The sleazoid spearheading this suit tried something similar in the past with American Airlines. This case was dismissed, so learning his lesson, he' s picking on the small guys.
I encourage every one of you to check out http://www.youmaybenext.com and educate yourselvs, and donate if you can. I have no affiliation with them, other than I' m the webmaster for e-commerce sites and don' t want to be a victim myself.
< Message edited by Richard Dudley -- 10/30/2002 10:02:17 AM >
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 11/6/2002 9:13:03
Additional coverage recently:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/4454889.htm.
This is an exciting article because a patent attorney near PanIP is joining the fight for the small businesses, and there is talk of trying to invalidate the patents.
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 12/16/2002 16:41:01
Continuing press coverage--someone else is going after the porno sites, and if you stream media, this will be of interest to you as well:
http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021212S0010
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/15/2003 16:34:33
I' m replying to myself again, but more coverage from Catalog Age. MultiMedia Live has it posted on their website:
http://www.mmlive.com/news_template.asp?toproll=5&roll=1&ID=384
The last page is especially poignant if you have purchased shopping cart technology.
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hhammash
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/16/2003 4:01:43
Is PanIP a government body or a representative for many companies?
Hisham
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/16/2003 23:30:28
PanIP is one company, as far as I know. They are not a government body for sure.
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Paula
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/18/2003 14:12:52
I' ve been paying particular attention to this thread because I' ve been talking with a local store owner about an ecommerce website. I' m wondering now if that' s a good idea. I' d hate to get sued or for him to be hurt by this whole mess. It looks to me like big design companies will end up being the only ones who can afford to do ecommerce anymore. It' s a great way for them to edge out smaller design companies from the ecommerce market, never mind folks like me who just do a few sites a year. Smaller retailers, unless they are very successful, won' t be able to afford licensing (I don' t think the guy I' m talking to will take the chance!) so companies like Multimedia Live with " annual revenue of $15 million" making deals for licensing for their clients " in perpetuity" will be able to spread that cost among their numerous clients in order to make it feasible. Am I reading this right? Is this the way of the future? Very disappointing for folks like me. I was really excited about this project, now I' m just worried. Is anybody else here having similar thoughts or am I just over-reacting?
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The more I learn the less I seem to know.
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Long Island Lune
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/19/2003 1:41:29
This post is shocking to say the least. Should I be weary of multiple lawsuits coming my way???
My definition of the web is still in the 4-letter-Word department! Danger at every turn...
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hhammash
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/19/2003 6:31:30
Hi,
Before making any e-commerce site, what should we ask? Who to ask? ask about what? In order to be on the safe side.
Hisham
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/21/2003 19:20:45
quote:
so companies like Multimedia Live with " annual revenue of $15 million" making deals for licensing for their clients " in perpetuity" will be able to spread that cost among their numerous clients in order to make it feasible
I was able to have a very candid talk with someone at MML regarding their settling, and they only settled with Devine. They didn' t have a good answer as to what would happen if PanIP came calling. As LIL asked:
quote:
Should I be weary of multiple lawsuits coming my way???
It' s possible. I personally don' t feel this is the way of the future. I do think that more small merchants will be hurt along the way if the word isn' t spread. I think it' s unfair to go after the merchants, rather than the makers of the software. I have certain expectations when I buy a product--any product--as to my indemnity.
I remember a few years ago, an inventor sued several of the automobile companies for infringing on his patent for intermittant wipers. He got some nice cash out of settlement. But he didn' t sue the car owners. Very similar deal to me--I purchased a product with the inherent belief that it was produced free and clear of any claims that could be held aginst me.
quote:
Before making any e-commerce site, what should we ask? Who to ask? ask about what? In order to be on the safe side.
I asked LaGarde in their support forum about this--no reply. I think we should insist on a reply from the software makers.
PDG took down their user forum alltogether when one of their users (not me) was bugging them for a statement. They basically said " you' re on your own, pal" , which didn' t sit well with him. The odd thing is, many of the patents of Devine' s claim post-date the release of PDG' s first product, so PDG actually could make a claim against Devine.
The way to really fight this is to join up with a group like www.youmaybenext.com, and alerting other members of trade associations. It' s really only through coming together as a group that we can afford to have adequate representation, and perhaps invalidate their patent claims.
On an upside, Devine went after one of the big floral companies (I think FTD.COM). They told Devine to go take a hike, and Devine did. They don' t want a fight, they want settlements, and they' ll pick on the small guys. This smacks of extortion to me, and if I get a letter, I' m heading to the Attorney General' s office.
If anybody knows or is related to any lawyers who are familiar with patent law, I' m sure we' d all appreciate you bringing this to their attention, and maybe they' d like to comment here or in other forums.
< Message edited by Richard Dudley -- 1/21/2003 7:21:46 PM >
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Richard Dudley
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RE: Could you be sued for e-commerce? - 1/28/2003 13:30:20
Here' s an interesting new twist:
quote:
" Purposeful Availment" Needed for Online Jurisdiction, Court Says
Even if an Internet Web site is both commercial and interactive, a
court cannot exercise jurisdiction over its operator unless there is also
proof that the company has " purposefully availed" itself of doing business
in that state, a federal appeals court has ruled. But in a key victory for
plaintiffs, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals also held that judges
must be willing to consider the defendant' s non-Internet activities " as
part of the ' purposeful availment' calculus" and that sometimes a
plaintiff must be given a chance to build just such a case for
jurisdiction.
Read more:
http://www.gigalaw.com/newsarchives/2003_01_28_index2.html#90243595
(Source: law.com)
What this basically means is that even though you have a website, that does not automatically make you a nationwide business. If you are a local business and have a website to support your local operations, then even though that website can be accessed nationwide, you are in the eyes of the court, a local entity. Sort of like a phone number. Your phone number can be called from any place in the country, but that doesn' t mean you intend to do business (e.g., avail yourself) there.
Hence, according to this decision, if you are sued by someone based on your website, they must sue you in your local US District, not theirs. PanIP has been filing suit in its local District in San Diego, which makes fighting their suits more problematic for small businesses. However, there is now precedent that the suit would have to be filed in your local district, not theirs. However, the game they can play is to file suit in their district, and force you into a proceeding to determine jurisdiction.
Caveat, of course. This is only the opinion of the Third District. Every US Distrct Court has its own tests to determine their jurisdiction in a case. And, if you are acting as a nationwide business (i.e., purposefully availing yourself in other districts), you can possibly be sued in those districs.
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